105mm M2 Sabot

[PPoS]

Found another oddity while rummaging around in the encylopedia.

The US 105mm M2 howitzer (availability March 1940 - April 1942) and the 105mm M3 howitzer (availability March 1940 - June 1942) have Sabot ammunition. However, while looking around in various sources (especially Technical Manual 9-1901 - Artillery Ammunition, 1944) there is no mention about any penetrator except the HEAT rounds.

The later M2's and M3's have HEAT ammunition, so I guess this might be an error.

Edit: I also see that the M7 105mm HMC (April 1942 - December 1946) has BOTH Sabot and HEAT ammunition. So what is the Sabot ammunition meant to represent ?

[DRG]

AP ammo.

AP when used for indirect fire weapons is cluster ammo so we use sabot to represent standard AP ammo and there are dozens and dozens of examples of that scattered all through the OOB's

Don

[PPoS]

Originally Posted by DRG

AP ammo.

AP when used for indirect fire weapons is cluster ammo so we use sabot to represent standard AP ammo and there are dozens and dozens of examples of that scattered all through the OOB's

Don

Roger that. You wouldn't happen to know the designation of the 105mm AP shot ? I can't seem to find it.

[DRG]

No idea but there must have been something before the HEAT


Don

[PPoS]

Originally Posted by DRG

No idea but there must have been something before the HEAT


Don

Alright, I'll have to do some more digging around. See if I can find any manuals for the M2/M3 pre-dating 1944.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by PPoS

Alright, I'll have to do some more digging around. See if I can find any manuals for the M2/M3 pre-dating 1944.

This is what War Department Technical Manual 9-2005 dated Dec 1942, page 58 says:

d. Ammunition. - Ammunition for the 105-mm howitzers, M2 and M2A1, is issued fuzed in the form of semifixed complete rounds.
The following types of service ammunition are "Standard" for issue and manufacture.

(1) Shell, H.E., M1, w/fuze, point detonating, M48, 105-mm howitzers, M2 and M2A1

(2) Shell, H.E., M1, w/fuze, time and superquick, M54, 105-mm howitzers, M2 and M2A1.

(3) Shell, gas, M60, w/fuze, point detonating, M57, 105-mm howitzers, M2 and M2A1.

(4) Shell, smoke, M84, 105-mm howitzers, M2 and M2A1.

(5) Shell, H.E.,A.T., M67.

Here's a screen print:



I'll attach the whole manual to this post.

Cross

[DRG]

Everyone can sleep easier tonight....... I've removed the "sabot" AP rounds from any 105mm howitzer in the OOBs that use that gun.


Don

[Brian61]

I can't find the reference but didn't the original workers on the OOBs in question for this use the sabot as a stand in for the field expedient of removing/not-installing of the HE fuse to get a solid shot round for direct fire anti armor?

I'm a bit concerned that history is being rewritten because internet sources aren't easily available. Perhaps on issues like this, running it by the TOandEs yahoo group where non-game specific history buffs live for finding such details.

Oh sure it's a trivial detail... so why not trust the original authors?

[DRG]

You may very well be correct. The info about the fuse does ring a bell now you have mentioned it. I have noted this down to investigate.

The problem here is the manuals that are being quoted were printed AFTER the time this expedient would have been used and the HEAT round was already available PLUS, if you look at the dates for the units involved there are very, very, VERY little chance the "average" or even advanced player would ever use that OOB during the time period those "field expedient" rounds would be used PLUS there is the issue of just when the M2 was issued to US troops. I'm finding different dates for that as well that require further digging but really..... there is a lot of typing and concern being expressed over an issue that would have virtually zero impact in the game.

So yes, sometime back in 1998 or 1999 this may have been added to simulate the HE fuse not being installed ( and as I said...it does kinda ring a bell ) but nobody left a note.

Don