Scales for the Jomon in CBM 1.92

[Bat/man]

Originally Posted by Calahan

I have not seen, or will I ever see, a good build for any nation that involves either Magic 0, Magic 2 or Drain 1 (not unless some major gameplay changes get patched/modded in).

The advice, generally, is good, but I think it overstates it a tad in the case of Magic 0.

Take Bogarus, as one example. From memory, their master of names is 8 RP. +1 on the magic scale yields about a 12.5% increase in research. (Lessened by mages that are crafting, searching or engaged in battle of course).

Whereas +1 on the Order Scale results in a 6-7% increase in the value of all income on all provinces.

Likewise Mictlan and other blood nations can use dome of corruption to increase the magic scale to m+3. If you are setup to endure the horrors - then you can enjoy M+3 without paying the design points for it.

But, like Calahan said - usually magic+1 is a very good design choice.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

Take Bogarus, as one example.

No offense, but when talking about Magic scales/research efficiency, you can never simply say "Take the most powerful research nation in the game, as one example". As if you do that then any point you make, no matter how valid it might be, is rendered mute because you chose the most extreme example possible to make the point with.

[Bat/man]

Originally Posted by Calahan

No offense, but when talking about Magic scales/research efficiency, you can never simply say "Take the most powerful research nation in the game, as one example". As if you do that then any point you make, no matter how valid it might be, is rendered mute because you chose the most extreme example possible to make the point with.

Look man, I'm not going to match your Forum-foo. I've little interest in arguing about how to make an argument.

If this were an interesting discussion, I would likewise say that any advice that says "I will *never* see a good Magic-0 build (paraphrase)" is also rendered moot.

I gave two examples that occurred off the top of my head. But it really is not that difficult to give other examples.

For example:
You have a pretender choice that you *really* love and want to play. The build is

[Exact build here, includes: Unluck 3]

And you still have to come up with 40 more design points.
You may well choose to drop magic to 0 rather than drop to death -3. Not so much because of the - to population, but because of unlocking the horrendous death events.

For another example:
You have EA-Arco with the Titaness pretender. You have something like 35 RP per turn with the pretender - and tons of available RP with the philosophers.

In many cases, all you need to do is obtain your research objects fast enough to support your goals. Once that occurs your priorities are better spent in other areas.

Or you start with expensive old age mages. You may need growth more than research to keep your mages alive.

Always true - no, of course not. But, lets take a step back: Do you really think there are *no* good magic-0 builds?

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

Likewise Mictlan and other blood nations can use dome of corruption to increase the magic scale to m+3. If you are setup to endure the horrors - then you can enjoy M+3 without paying the design points for it.

I don't think anybody has ever been able to pull this off and end up better than he started using the dome of corruption.

It's one of those forum myths, like. Use bad scales but don't spread them. Move your mages around so you don't have the drain 3 problems.

[Radio_Star]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

Look man, I'm not going to match your Forum-foo ... If this were an interesting discussion, I would likewise say that any advice that says "I will *never* see a good Magic-0 build (paraphrase)" is also rendered moot.

Your Forum-foo is strong, but it is no match for my Pretentiousspellnazi style!

[Bwaha]

Originally Posted by Calahan

As a general rule you should only ever take Magic 3, Magic 1, or Drain 2, regardless of nation (unless it's for a game with crazy settings). This is because any other choice for the Magic scale is either just an awful idea (Drain 3) or is purely wasting design points and/or research potential (Magic 0, Magic 2, Drain 1) due to the way the Magic scale settings are spaced out with regard to gaining or losing RP's.

I have not seen, or will I ever see, a good build for any nation that involves either Magic 0, Magic 2 or Drain 1 (not unless some major gameplay changes get patched/modded in). There might be a decent design involving Drain 3 for one of the nations that can ignore the RP lost with Drain, but even that is unlikely unless it's a small game, and not unless you like possibly losing sack loads of gems to the Magic Fading event (this event alone can often be enough to avoid taking Drain scales).

So while I won't comment on your build for Jomon, I will say that by taking Magic 0, you are instantly making your design a poor one, and the very first thing to do when designing a Pretender for Jomon should be to take (at least) Magic 1 and proceed from there (as is the case for 95% of nations)

I agree totally with this comment.