Scenario: Checking interest for a large(ish) scale game.

[Vanguard X]

Hi. The reason I am posting this tread is to see who, if anyone would like to start up a game based around these parameters:

Game parameters:

Number of players: However many players want to join, minimum 4. The randomly generated map will be generated to average ~25 provinces per player..

-Map: Randomly generated; size will be roughly 25 provinces per player. Low water map; high land ratio. Players will also begin the game with 5 starting provinces.

-Excluded nations: No water nations.

-ERA: Any

Independents strength: 8

-Mods: Vanilla/standard + Single age mod; allows armies of any era to be used.

-Magic site frequency: 50

-Renaming: On

-Graph: On

-Hall of Fame: 15

-Everything else set as default

-Turn length: Initially 30h/turn, quick host. Will expand timer later in the game.

-Diplomacy: Trades are binding. Anything else goes.

-Winner: Last one standing, or agreement.

-Game exploits are forbidden.

-Hosting the Game on llamaserver.


I would like for this to be a fast moving game with players able to devote enough time to be able to leave the 30 hour timer running for as long as possible. It would also be nice if all the players could manage more than 1 turn per day during the weekends, but I understand that may be asking for too much.

I am new to Dominions (but not to gaming), and I have never hosted a game. Having an experienced co-host (or lead host) would be welcomed.

Consider this scenario to be in the early planning stages, and depending on the feedback, and the number of people interested, this game might not happen. I am looking forward to hearing any thoughts, or opinions of how a game set up like this might work out, and if anyone would like to try this. Thank you for reading.

[Valerius]

Well, you asked for opinions so I'll strongly discourage you from a 30 province/player map. You mentioned you wanted a large game - even if you just get 10 players you're talking about a 300 province map. The game will run for a long time and people's RL circumstances will change and you'll lose them (and it won't be easy to find subs for a game like this). Even the ones that stay will likely be put off by the micromanagement hell of a large scale late game.

You mentioned you were new to Dominions so my suggestion is to reach the late game in a couple of 8-10 player games (15 provinces/player average) and see what your tolerance for micromanagement is. It may be exceptionally high, but if you can handle the late game micro in a game like you're describing you're definitely in the minority.

[Vanguard X]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Well, you asked for opinions so I'll strongly discourage you from a 30 province/player map. You mentioned you wanted a large game - even if you just get 10 players you're talking about a 300 province map. The game will run for a long time and people's RL circumstances will change and you'll lose them (and it won't be easy to find subs for a game like this). Even the ones that stay will likely be put off by the micromanagement hell of a large scale late game.

You mentioned you were new to Dominions so my suggestion is to reach the late game in a couple of 8-10 player games (15 provinces/player average) and see what your tolerance for micromanagement is. It may be exceptionally high, but if you can handle the late game micro in a game like you're describing you're definitely in the minority.

Yes, I have noticed that most players favor less provinces; which is why I am curious to see if there are any other players interested in larger scale games.

From my gaming background, I don't mind spending a few hours per turn. I don't even feel like the game is starting till I have over 20 provinces to manage
So I'm sure I don't mind the extra load of managing a large country. I'm just hoping to find a few others who are up to that added level of challenge too.

But I wouldn't mind reducing the province average closer to ~25 per player if a few players would want to give it a go. Thanks for the reply.

[TigerBlood]

Large games are fun. A different type of fun. Whereas some people are put off by micromanagement, I find that aspect of the game rewarding, especially when a cohesive, long term plan starts to come together.

Pencil me in for a spot in the game. I am currently involved in a couple of other games at the moment, but one or two should be winding down soon.

[Vanguard X]

I've been doing some testing, and I edited the OP and tweaked some of the settings in hopes of appealing to a few more players. The changes are marked in color.

- 25 provinces per player; countries will start the game with 5 provinces.

- upped indy. strength to 8.


To address RL issues, it should be noted that turn extensions will be generously granted when requested.


@ Tigerblood.

Large games are fun. A different type of fun. Whereas some people are put off by micromanagement, I find that aspect of the game rewarding, especially when a cohesive, long term plan starts to come together.

Yes, I agree with this. More land area adds more logistical challenges, and opens up some options for managing a country that cannot be found in small land mass games. Increased importance on good scouting, and managing conflicts on multiple fronts are just a couple of possibilities that come to mind. It also allows for better options for players who want to use sleeping, or imprisoned pretenders too.

[Calahan]

Any game that has over 20 provinces per player is just asking for a disaster. And if the total provinces on the map is over 250, then while not as bad as the former, it is still asking for trouble to call at some point in the game.

You said above that you are new to Dominions, and so new to Dominions MP. Please do yourself the biggest favour possible and play in some regular MP games first before deciding that you would be happy to play a game under the settings you've outlined on this thread. It honestly doesn't matter how much you enjoy playing the game in SP, or enjoy spending hour upon hour playing it in SP. Nothing can prepare you (time wise) for the huge step-up to MP games. The community has lost several players over the years due to people opting to run at full speed before they could stand. So please allow yourself to get a good taste for Dominions MP games in general before even considering to play in such a massive scale game.


As I can not stress strongly enough how bad an idea such a high (20+) province-player ratio is. Dominions does not scale the same as other strategy games, as while it can be fun playing Gal Civ or Civ 2/3/4 with mega maps, the same can not be said of Dominions. The UI offers no help in managing huge empires, and the reality is that while it can be fun some nights to spend 2-3 hours playing Dominions, if you have to put in 2-3 hours every night of every day for 6-12 months just to play one game, then the fun factor evaporates very quickly. It is impossible, and I mean absolutely flat out impossible, to get the feel from SP games of a large scale MM heavy empire in the late stage of the game.

So as I just said, please do yourself a big favour and just play some regular MP games first.


Plus I really don't envisage you getting many players for the setting you are proposing, simply because most playes know that such a large scale (player-province ratio) is a really bad idea. And those that don't know will get told it the moment they ask anyone sensible. Just check out the Doomday5 game (or all the previous ones) currently taking place if you want to observe what disaster can await any game that has stupidly high player-province ratios.

[LDiCesare]

I'll join in to say the proposed settings are a very good way to lead to a disaster.
With that many provinces and vanilla, if you get many players, I can predict an end-game with so many clams, fetishes and blood stones that the winners will spend an hour just checking the gems on scouts. People will get bored and leave because it's not 1 hour you will need to play a game with these settings. I already need 1 hour to play a game with maybe 10 provinces when I'm at war. When you have 80 provinces and a lab full every turn with forging clams, armor, swords, blood stones etc., you will really wish you had piacked a smaller scale game because frankly playing 2 games at 10/15 provinces per player doesn't take much more time than 1 game with 25 but is way more fun.

[TigerBlood]

I'm not particularly pedantic about scripting each individual commander, outfitting units with specific item load outs or meeting other specific criteria like troop placement or winning a research race. I don't care if I make mistakes or forget to give orders to a particular unit. I prefer more relaxed goals and a laissez faire approach to nation management. This is probably why I rarely stale.

If someone wants to manage every aspect of their nation to the nth degree, burn out before turn 20 and start crying about how the micro is too hard, I don't really care. I'll still get my turns in...and I won't be making predictable excuses if the RNG does not work in my favour.

[Vanguard X]

Originally Posted by Calahan

...
You said above that you are new to Dominions, and so new to Dominions MP. Please do yourself the biggest favour possible and play in some regular MP games first before deciding that you would be happy to play a game under the settings you've outlined on this thread. It honestly doesn't matter how much you enjoy playing the game in SP, or enjoy spending hour upon hour playing it in SP. Nothing can prepare you (time wise) for the huge step-up to MP games. The community has lost several players over the years due to people opting to run at full speed before they could stand. So please allow yourself to get a good taste for Dominions MP games in general before even considering to play in such a massive scale game.


As I can not stress strongly enough how bad an idea such a high (20+) province-player ratio is. Dominions does not scale the same as other strategy games, as while it can be fun playing Gal Civ or Civ 2/3/4 with mega maps, the same can not be said of Dominions. The UI offers no help in managing huge empires, and the reality is that while it can be fun some nights to spend 2-3 hours playing Dominions, if you have to put in 2-3 hours every night of every day for 6-12 months just to play one game, then the fun factor evaporates very quickly. It is impossible, and I mean absolutely flat out impossible, to get the feel from SP games of a large scale MM heavy empire in the late stage of the game.

So as I just said, please do yourself a big favour and just play some regular MP games first.


Plus I really don't envisage you getting many players for the setting you are proposing, simply because most playes know that such a large scale (player-province ratio) is a really bad idea. And those that don't know will get told it the moment they ask anyone sensible. Just check out the Doomday5 game (or all the previous ones) currently taking place if you want to observe what disaster can await any game that has stupidly high player-province ratios.

I appreciate your concerns, and your advise, as I recognize you as a vet player.

I would like to clarify a few points regarding my position on desiring to play a game with higher than average province count though.

- I am not basing my desire for a larger game based on SP. While I recognize that many here find the time investment of a large scale game daunting, I don't find it daunting at all. And SP is severely boring to me.

My gaming background lends itself quite well to heavy time investment games. I cut my teeth on table-top, grand strategy games ages ago, and have over a decade of MMORPG gaming under my belt- I know how time consuming a gaming hobby can be.

Yes, I am new to Dom3; and to speak frankly, I am somewhat disappointed by the lack of competitive activity I have been able to engage in so far. I didn't expect to buy this game only to play a turn for maybe 30-60 minutes, every other day (which seems to be the norm from what I can see- excluding multiple games). I expected to be engaged in a higher degree of enjoyable time involvement when I read up on what this game engine offers.

I read things like: max 1500 provinces; max 21 players; over 1,000 units; hundreds of spells! Amazing depth. I'm thinking "Whooo hooo!! I just found heaven!" And jumped right in.

A maximum size map, with max players averages 71.4 provinces per player. And now I'm hearing about how horrible it is over 20 provinces per player.


Yes, I understand that is not everyone's cup of tea. That is why I made this thread to check if there are others who might be interested in exploring alternative country set ups.

If we can muster up 4 players, I think that would be fine to start. That's only a 100 province map, and each player will start with 5 provinces. Seems rather tame from my point of view

Thanks for your reply.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Vanguard X

Yes, I am new to Dom3; and to speak frankly, I am somewhat disappointed by the lack of competitive activity I have been able to engage in so far. I didn't expect to buy this game only to play a turn for maybe 30-60 minutes, every other day (which seems to be the norm from what I can see- excluding multiple games). I expected to be engaged in a higher degree of enjoyable time involvement when I read up on what this game engine offers.

Definitely sounds like you can devote more time to the game than most players so that will limit the audience. People are able to complete their turns at different speeds but I find late game turns can easily take a couple of hours (assuming I'm at war).

So your best bet is maybe a couple of fast pace games that only go up to a 48 hour hosting interval. That way you could rotate them and, once you reach late game, be able to spend 1-2 hours a day on each game. The catch is it will take some time to reach that point (assuming you do make it that far). This will tempt you to join a lot of games but that can be dangerous because if you do well you may find it's too much even for you to have four late stage games going at once. Best to be patient at first - later it will be easier to balance having a mix of time consuming late stage games and fast moving early stage games.

I wonder if a blitz might be something you'd like? Get a few people together for an afternoon of quick play?

Originally Posted by Vanguard X

If we can muster up 4 players, I think that would be fine to start. That's only a 100 province map, and each player will start with 5 provinces. Seems rather tame from my point of view

That's much more reasonable. Sure, it's a high prov/player count but the total number of provinces isn't extreme. Now, I'm still no a fan of gem gens regardless of map size but I won't push that on you.