USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

Yes M27 IAR (2) ( I'm aiming to change the way (2) weapons are named in all OOB's to make finding singles and doubles easier ) would be HEK=5. However, becasue it's being used as a SAW/LMG I'm considering applying the same accuracy forumula that other LMG's get which would bring the accuracy to 19 which closer approximates the firearms function

Full Auto and closed bolt eh ? Interesting ( might be after a long firefight....) at 28 RPM in temperatures over 100 F they really are counting on accuracy. Every SAW gunner is going to need sniper training...

Don

If you're open to suggestions on how to name weapons with doubles and triples I've been using "3x M249 SAW" in my OOB revision. Makes searching on "2x", "3x" easy, and lets the player easily see this weapon is multiple weapons not a single.

From what I read the replacement of the standard M16 gas system with the HK piston one makes a HUGE difference in reliability and heating issues.

As to the replacement of an LMG with an AR, yeah, you will lose a significant amount of your ability to suppress via the "spray and pray" method, but (NOT trying to reopen this can of worms, honestly) improved accuracy means you hit closer to your target more often, and that's a lot more suppressive then rounds whizzing by 10m away.
Also it cuts down ammo expenditure, and that's important to something like the USMC that doesn't have a US Army type logistics tail.

[DRG]

I've been reading the debates on this and both sides have made good points but it really depends on where the fighting is. If most of your last 10 years of experience has been urban fighting then something light and accurate is highly desirable. If they had spent the last ten years fighting trench warfare the decision would be different but I think the USMC leadership has hedged their bets nicely by keeping some M249's around ( it made putting the M27's into the OOB's much easier )......and in five years if things change there's lot's of other weapons to fill that niche.

Just curious what score is required for USMC expert and how big is the 10 ring at the various ranges ( and...) what time period do you have to fire how many rounds to score ?

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

Just curious what score is required for USMC expert and how big is the 10 ring at the various ranges ( and...) what time period do you have to fire how many rounds to score ?

Don

5 ring actually. We score 5 pt bulls-eye, 4 pt ring, 3 pt ring, 2 pt on target.
We use 3 different targets.

200m Slow Fire (12in bulls-eye, 36in overall)
5 rounds offhand (10 min)
5 rounds kneeling (10 min)

200m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 19x26in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds standing to sitting in 60 seconds

300m Slow fire (12in bulls-eye, 36in overall)
10 rounds sitting (10 min)

300m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 26x19in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds standing to prone in 60 seconds

500m Slow Fire (torso silhouette, 20x40in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds prone (10 min)

Unqualified = 0-189
Marksman = 190-209
Sharpshooter = 210-219
Expert = 220+
Possible Score 250

[DRG]

200m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 19x26in bulls-eye

300m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 26x19in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)

Just so I'm clear the 200 and 300 rapid fire target is the same just turned 90 degrees ?

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

Just so I'm clear the 200 and 300 rapid fire target is the same just turned 90 degrees ?

Don

No same target, 19x26in ... I just typo'd.

The target doesn't move.
You start out standing with 2x 5-round magazines.
When the signal is given the 60 seconds starts.
You assume a sitting (200m) or prone (300m) position, fire a 5-round magazine, change magazines, fire the other 5-rounds.

They've added a "quick kill"/"shoot-no-shoot" course in addition to the standard qualification course I hear. While I've never fired it chances are it is very similar to the one we Military Police types used when I was in. Pretty much the course you see on TV all the time in American police shows.

[DRG]

I meant "turned" as in rotated for the longer range because you had typo'd the dimensions but I see what you mean now. Interesting they force a mag change but I can see why it's done.

Where do most people drop points ---- on the LR section or the speed shoots ?

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

I meant "turned" as in rotated for the longer range because you had typo'd the dimensions but I see what you mean now. Interesting they force a mag change but I can see why it's done.

Where do most people drop points ---- on the LR section or the speed shoots ?

Don

Most have trouble with the 200m offhand (gee, wonder why).

Some "chase the bull" or anticipate the shot during slow fire. Neither is very easy to "fix" as you have to convince the shooter to change essentially unconscious habits.

If your aim or sights are off you can totally blow it in the speed shots. But, as long as they have a fairly tight group (say 18in) that's easily fixed (unless it's qualification day, then your screwed). Some however get so wound up in the time element they can't relax enough to reacquire their aim between shots. It's only 10 rounds and a magazine change so they have 3-4 seconds per shot but knowing that and "KNOWING" that are two totally different things.

Coaches can suggest alterations to sights for current wind and weather conditions (it's "fun" firing in the rain) but it's up to each shooter to adjust them themselves.

Most manage 35-40 in the 500m string (that was my easy part, 48-50).

So in answer to the question, it varies from shooter to shooter. Most folks have trouble with one string of fire or another but find others easy.

I recall a kid claiming it was the rifle's fault (it does happen once in a blue moon) and a CWO4 that had been in since the Romans conquered Gaul grabbed the weapon fired one shot, offhand, adjusted the sights, then put 10 in the bull ... at 500m, and tossed the kid his weapon back and said "Seems OK to me."

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

............then put 10 in the bull ... at 500m, and tossed the kid his weapon back and said "Seems OK to me."

HeHeHe.....

GOOD ONE.

Thanks for the info. Really Good Stuff. I help out at our club Saturday mornings with the Juniors and my daughter shoots .22 rifle. Actually, I'm just on my way out the door now... We're only 50 yard indoor but I can see a modified USMC qualification fun shoot some time in the future.

I had a similar situation once with a new kid who could barely hit the paper and was blaming the gun and I took it and from prone nailed the bull dead center on the first shot ( I'm the first to admit I'm not normally that good believe me ) and as calmly as possible said exactly the same thing as that CWO4 so that story gave me a really good chuckle.

Don

[Suhiir]

If you can find a 200m range and rig some targets, 1cm steel on a spring loaded frame so they "fall" when hit and "pop up" via the spring (sort of stuff you see at carnival and fair shooting galleries). You can also use battery powered electric motors (like those used in remote control cars/airplanes) to create moving targets.
Depends on your creativity and skill with tools, but you can make stuff for not much cost, the kids will love it.