spob34

[Arralen]

Addendum:

Could be that Unit 425 Ansaldo 75mm and Unit 423 3RO 75L46 are meant to be using the same gun?!

Though italian measurement of calibre length was somewhat different from the usual (allied) one, at least according to some sources, and in general, shorter, I doubt that the 75L46 could be the heavy 75mm Ansaldo AA/AT gun rated as L60 by the allies. But then, I wasn't able to find anything 'bout a 75/L60 AA gun, but lots of pointers to the 75/L46 AA gun?! It is somewhat suspicious, that both seem to use the Mod.34 designation ?!?!


PS: One may want to ask the folks at juniorgeneral.org what are their source for these pics ...

[DRG]

It's a 75/46-mm AA gun (Model 34) mounted on a truck

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ar...ppendix-d.html
75/46-mm AA gun (Model 34) Caliber (inches)2.97 Muzzle velocity (foot-seconds) 2,350 Max range (yards) 14,100 /27,200 ft Remarks "Mobile gun "

Somebody long ago decided either this or other information warranted it's inclusion. It's sat in dusty obscurity until you bought up the issue of AP ammo. It will have AP ammo in the next patch release

Don

[Arralen]

Looking at the Nafziger OOBs

942IQAU Italian Army, Authorized Strength, 75mm/46 Anti-Aircraft or Anti-Tank Artillery Group, June 1942

942IQAV Italian Army, Authorized Strength, 90mm/53 Anti-Aircraft or Anti-Tank Artillery Group, June 1942

I've come to the suspicion that there wheren't any truck-mounted 75/46 guns, but 90/53 guns only (do the math - 4 guns, 1 reserv. tractor, 4 trucks, 1 reserve driver = 10 vs. 4 SP guns, 4 trucks, 2 hv. trucks and 1 reserve driver = 11):

The OOB list per gun section (4 guns):
- 10 Drivers / 5 Tractors & 4 heavy trucks for the 75/46,
but
- 11 Drivers / 4 munition caissons heavy trucks & 2 heavy trucks for the 90/53

I haven't checked all the avalaible pics, but I want to point you (again) to
http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none75-46.html

and

http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none90-53.html

... it's pretty obvious that there isn't ONE pic of a truck-mounted 75/46, but several of the Lancia 3Ro 90/53 !!!


There are some pics of a truck-mounted 75/27 CK, though (http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...nnone75ck.html), which may be the "75mm based on an obsolete WWI gun", which is mentioned on one of the websites I linked somewhere above.


Thanks for your patience.
Again.

[Arralen]

There's some late-war trouble especially with the armour formations in spob34 ... :

Lots of them end in 8/43 or 9/43. (isn't 9/43 the date of the surrender?) - yet, lots of arty and inf formations run through to 12/46

You can start generated (what-if) battles/campaigns ("Operation Unthinkable") after that date just fine ... .

Even long campaigns, which then end 2 years before they started - but this is said to be a bug
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...866#post755866

[DRG]

The Italian army didn't evaporate with the surrender, they nominaly changed sides and that's why there is infantry and artillery. As time passes more and more allied equipment is added but the historic long campaign we ended with the surrender in 1943. As noted you can play all the what if's you like with the generated campaign. The reason there are various end dates to the armoured formations is because some contiuned in operation a bit longer than others

The long campaign issue regarding the start date is a minor bug that anyone can avoid simply by not setting one up that way, but we WILL fix it so that this will not be an issue for anyone when we issue the next upgrade to the game.

Don

[Arralen]

Problem is:
There are (nearly)no working armour formations after 9/'43!!
E.g. in June/'45 all that is available are some flame thrower tank squad and platoon (IIRC) - looks like the old vehicles/formations are phased out in '43, and the new formations only start in '46.
So if you want to "switch sides", and play Italians vs. Germans in late'44, early '45, or Italians vs. Comminist Menace in '45/'46, you'll have no armour at all !!

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Arralen

Problem is:
There are (nearly)no working armour formations after 9/'43!!
E.g. in June/'45 all that is available are some flame thrower tank squad and platoon (IIRC) - looks like the old vehicles/formations are phased out in '43, and the new formations only start in '46.
So if you want to "switch sides", and play Italians vs. Germans in late'44, early '45, or Italians vs. Comminist Menace in '45/'46, you'll have no armour at all !!

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

If you find info the contrary do let us know but what we have in the OOB now is what reseach gave us years ago and has been like that since the games OOB's were first re-written. IE, the italian army did not contain armour formations post surrender until the war ended and was strictly an infantry army. Like it or not that's the way it was and unless someone can come up with hard data that the italians operated armoured units post surrender that's the way it was going to stay. The guy who worked on that OOB was and Italiophile..... if there were armoured units post surrender, he would have included them

From the game guide historical game notes

Post-surrender (1943-1945) forces are included also. The OOB has had the RSI (Republica Sociale Italiana) split off into their own OOB so the units included after the armistice in September 1943 include the co-belligerant forces that fought for the allies and against the Germans for the period approx September 1943 - March 1944 mostly with Italian weapons. Then, until September 1944 it became known as "Corpo italiano di liberazione" (C.I.L) and British equipment starts to become more prevalent. From September 1944 until the end of 1945 the Italian army was know as "Gruppi di combattimento" In December of 1943, the liberated Italian army was fighting alongside their new allies against the Germans. Monte Lungo, Monte Cassino and the liberation of Rome were some of the many battles in which the Italians participated. Italian partisans also managed to sidetrack over 200,000 Germans due to their resistance. In the beginning of 1944, the 185th Nembo Autonomous Parachute Unit was employed on the Gustav line and was involved in heavy fighting against seasoned German Units. Some of the heavier engagements were at Mainarde, Monte Marrone and Monte San Michele.

It should be noted that immediately after the surrender was a time of chaos. Many Italians just wanted to end the fighting, but the war raged all around them with Italians fighting the Axis, Italians fighting the Allies, and Italians fighting Italians. All through 1944 and until the war ended in Spring of 1945, Italians fought on both sides of some of the most fierce fighting the war would see. From Monte Cassino to the streets of Rome, Genoa and Florence, Italian soldiers fought and died for both sides. The war did not end for Italy when she surrendered.

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Arralen

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

I haven't researched the topic in detail, though I might do that someday, but what you find strange is perfectly logical.
At surrender time most of the country had either already fallen into allied hands or quickly fell into german ones as most army units either melted as the command structure collapsed or were quickly shot to pieces by the wermacht.
Only a few units remained intact in area of the south which the allies had not reached, the germans were not in strenght and the local commanders had kept their cool; the king and some generals hd fled there for what they were worth (not much, but that would be a separate thread).
Now, the italian AFVs that did not fall in the pathetic category by the summer 1943 amounted to little more than relatively few assault guns and tank destroyers; we are talking about numbers in tens range for each type, not a whole lot. Of those some were lost in Sicily against the allies ( apparently all the Semovente 90L53 for example) and most or all of the rest were either captured or destroyed by the germans.
I don't have an exact OOB of those units which survived in the South at hand but from what I recall it was an infantry division tasked with coast defense and a mixed bag of other assorted infantry units; while I can't say with 100% certainty that no armor was there even in the unlikely case they had something that did not fall in the useless category there was the little problem that all the tank plants were in german controlled territory, so any long term use would have been problematic.
The italian units which fought alongside the allies were progressively equipped with allied weapons due to logistical considerations, tanks may not have been issued fo a variety of reasons.