Brainstorm: EA/MA/LA Arabian/Islamic themed nation

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Wrana:
Ach, more abandoned projects!

You are welcome! Ours was not actually abandoned, I just thought about making some more work on it - I'm just not that good with graphics and am currently under influence of Sloth scale...

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I used to be passable at pixel art. Its been years since i've done any. Mostly I found its something that just requires a lot of patience and a willingness to tinker. Which means if I can crib from other people's work, it certainly wouldn't hurt, but I think I'm capable of eventually producing something that I could live with.

That's good! I've also seen currently another thread with similar intent - and it looks another guy who can draw appeared. Maybe now we will end up with something playable!

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Regarding ages:
Obviously I agree that a jann-dominated EA is a good idea. However, this actually gives me four ages worth of material, which is where i start dithering over where the division between MA/LA is in the OP.

EA: Jann Kings
MA: Jihad - spreading of Islam and the early caliphate. (Think 700-1000AD) Probably work a city of wonders themed baghdad in here.
LA1: Crusades era. Well developed military, powerful cavalry, etc...
LA2: Early Ottoman Empire. This has the signature disadvantage of require firearms *and* cannon. (Talking about the turks without talking about cannon is stupid. They emerge into history with the defeat of Byzantium - a siege famous for the use of rather large cannon). I'm not sure I want to deal with making bullet/cannonball graphics either, although it would be a rather different nation...

Maybe this is worth 2 separate LA nations, and give the Turks their due as a separate power? (Makes historical sense as well).

Hm. I thought about it. A disadvantage of Jihad period is that it is both contrary to many things which are "common knowledge" about Arabic warfare and realtively unknown: later period has much more sources on it. Plus, this looks somewhat outside Dominions tradition - on the other hand, various existing texts often use notes about various great predescessors in past (see LA Arcoscephales). So I decided to place Mohammad between EA and MA in the end.
As for Turks - the thing is, they replaced arabic states, they didn't coexist with them. And taking Constantinopolis was not when even Osmans emerged - they already had powerful political presence before this (Bizantium remains paid them for a long time and some of these states were officially vassals of Sultans) and it's possible their attack on Byzantium capital could occurr much earlier if not for Tamerlan. Cannons were prominent in historical Porta, but it's possible to replace them in fantasy world. I just replaced janissary handgunners with crossbowmen and left heavy artillery for battle mages...

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

And of course, Persia has enough material to deserve its own mod nation and not intrude here!

Yes, but there are many common mitfs in folklore here. Actually, what we know as "Arabian nights" is late version, heavily influenced by Persians. I have some extracts from earlier Arabian texts, but they are few and I have an impression that this is also the case generally. On the other hand, there are much more Persian and Persianised sources...

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

The funny thing about fantasy in general is that it has this weird ahistorical idea that truly heavy armor and crossbows predate the use of cannons. As our earliest evidence for cannon use goes back to the 13th century, this is patently false, and firearms followed not long afterwards. They wouldn't become dominant considerations on the battlefield for a century or two, but they were certainly present. I would expect the LA to have cannons and a firearm unit for many of the more military-focused nations.

Surely! On the other hand, an appearance of gunpowder artillery in Europe was precipitated by the loss of art of making torsion-driven machines during Dark Ages. This technology was rebuilt during Rennaissance, but by the time cannons had also appeared. And handguns could not appear without some trafition of cannon-making... I actually think that there was a possibility that firearms would not develop, and crossbows and torsion machines being later replaced with gauss guns and similar... More to our subject, in fantasy world there could be a possibility that gunpoweder artillery won't emerge due to lack of necessity in it, long range attacks and wall reducing being performed by mages/monsters. Also, siege engines in Dominions are abstracted in Siege bonus, so you can just mention it in description... In other words - where we have Spanish and German pikemen without supporting artillery, we can have Sipahi and Janissaries without them, too!

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Genius Locus:
The idea is pre-islam, and pan-mesopotamian. Actually the idea of jinni is too. The term Genius Locus is latin, as the idea was transmitted to Rome following its conquest of the holy land area. A genius in latin is a type of spirit entity, so genius locus is literally a 'location spirit' (with the appropriate connotations on spirit from genius). The latin word genius is actually the immediate root for the english 'genie'. (Latin genius may be derived from jinni, although its hard to know for certain).

Interesting, thank you. Words are quite similar, but... Romans were also quite ready to make something abstract into a deity, so it's possible that they were the source. Or it developed independent. Or it's a proof they really came from Troy...

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

I think its way past due for an Arabic nation mod; especially considering the breadth of history and mythology that has thus far, gone untapped.

Thematically I think you are spot on for the EA. Human chaff, with strong sacred Jinn available to provide your magical and physical heft. I think structurally the nation should be quite smiler to Kailasa, in that there will be a rising tier of summons. Lesser Jinn/Efreet can be massed by summonings, jinn nobles could be summon able caster/thugs, the upper tier would be occupied by Marids possessing awesome powers in astral, water, and air and the more conventional Jinn and Efreet sultans. I especially like your idea of including Iblis as a hero, as I could see him both as an impressive Air/blood/death mage with his pitfall being a high level of heresy.

Middle era should definitely be the high water point of the Caliphate and the land of 1001 nights. Holy magic should be emphasized, with viable bless strategies on the part of dervishes and Jinn summons. The army would be generally light/ with most of the heavy infantry/cavalry stemming from costly Turkic mercenaries. It would be cool to have sufi mystics, as spies/stealthy preachers. I think it would be interesting, but unnecessary for the nation to be able to summon chaff, flambeau wielding angels with holy/fire casters. I also like the suggestion of Abdul Alhazard as a hero. Particularly one with an impressive array of Blood, Astral, and Death balanced out with a terminal case of insanity.

I know a lot of people have been suggesting the Ottomans as being the driving force behind the late era, it just doesn't seem ideal to me. Too much of the Ottomans revolves thematically around gunpowder and cannons. An alternative replacement could be the Mamelukes. The nation could center around elite slave soldiers that successfully defended the nation from outside enemies only to eventually take power for themselves. Once again it would be holy magic centric, but as fitting for the LA, possessing much less magical diversity.

[elmokki]

Originally Posted by Lurker_at_Threshold

I also like the suggestion of Abdul Alhazard as a hero. Particularly one with an impressive array of Blood, Astral, and Death balanced out with a terminal case of insanity.

Yes. I should bang my head on the wall for not including it in my own mod's original post. Considering Dominions 3 has significant lovecraftian refrences already (MA and LA R'lyeh as a whole and atlantians especially) it would suit perfectly to an arabic nation.

Middle era should definitely be the high water point of the Caliphate and the land of 1001 nights. Holy magic should be emphasized, with viable bless strategies on the part of dervishes and Jinn summons. The army would be generally light/ with most of the heavy infantry/cavalry stemming from costly Turkic mercenaries. It would be cool to have sufi mystics, as spies/stealthy preachers. I think it would be interesting, but unnecessary for the nation to be able to summon chaff, flambeau wielding angels with holy/fire casters.

Regarding that I thought someone's suggestion was awesome. It was that the MA version should have skilled and mobile, if less organized (represented by lower morale) light beduin type troops, atleast some of them with stealth and heavier, mainly unmounted, troops with ornate jewelled armors from the grand cities of the Caliphate.

For MA, the troops could be something roughly like this:

All falchions are replacable with a curved sword of choice. City guards and non-beduin cavalry atleast probably should have pretty good stats but also should cost a bit more than their stats warrant.

Troops:
- Militia
- Archer (relatively lightly armored, shortbow)
- Infantry (spear, shield, relatively light armor)
- Infantry (falchion, shield, relatively light armor)
- Beduin cavalry (falchion or light lance?, shield, light armor, stealth)
- Beduin horse archer (shortbow, falchion?, light armor, stealth)
- Cavalry (light lance?, shield?, medium armor)
- City Guard (relatively heavy armor, falchion, shield, castle defence bonus. A bit of gold yellow in the metal parts of armor)
- Some sort of a capital only real elite/noble unit (pretty heavy armor, falchion, shield, good skill)
- Dervish (The two falchion weakly armored but highly skilled sacred unit I've drawn sprites for and idea of which I absolutely love)

Commanders:
- Imam (H1 priest)
- Beefed up imam (H3 priest, capital only)
- Grand Vizier (a high skilled mage, probably emphasis on air and fire, but should have considerable other paths too. Astral maybe? Capital only. Might need a new name. I really like the idea that the best scholars come from the great minaret of the capital)
- Vizier (a less skilled mage that still is good enough to be able to cast useful combat spells of fire and/or air, probably randoms so that most of them have fire or air 2 atleast. One level of astral as possible random path?)
- Mystic (S1, H1, Stealthy)
- Beduin commander (mounted troop that's pretty much equipped like the mounted beduins)
- Guard Captain (a city guard commander)
- Assassin of some sort probably? Maybe the generic one?

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Lurker_at_Threshold

Thematically I think you are spot on for the EA. Human chaff, with strong sacred Jinn available to provide your magical and physical heft. I think structurally the nation should be quite smiler to Kailasa, in that there will be a rising tier of summons. Lesser Jinn/Efreet can be massed by summonings, jinn nobles could be summon able caster/thugs, the upper tier would be occupied by Marids possessing awesome powers in astral, water, and air and the more conventional Jinn and Efreet sultans. I especially like your idea of including Iblis as a hero, as I could see him both as an impressive Air/blood/death mage with his pitfall being a high level of heresy.

A trap here is a possibility to make them too similar. Mine version had genie nobility with quite different powers from Yakshas. But as for troops... They are also depicted as beautiful - so Awe is an obvious choice. A possible difference is to include genie cavalry...
Probably I should upload last version of my genies here (some ideas were by Aezeal, I may be not able to remember which ones)...

Originally Posted by Lurker_at_Threshold

Middle era should definitely be the high water point of the Caliphate and the land of 1001 nights. Holy magic should be emphasized, with viable bless strategies on the part of dervishes and Jinn summons. The army would be generally light/ with most of the heavy infantry/cavalry stemming from costly Turkic mercenaries. It would be cool to have sufi mystics, as spies/stealthy preachers. I think it would be interesting, but unnecessary for the nation to be able to summon chaff, flambeau wielding angels with holy/fire casters. I also like the suggestion of Abdul Alhazard as a hero. Particularly one with an impressive array of Blood, Astral, and Death balanced out with a terminal case of insanity.

Thanks for support! Another thing not mentioned here are Berberic Corsairs. Them I also included. On the other hand - I'm against the dervishes as troop name. I'd just name the sacred troops ghazi - but if most of you won't think it silly...
And yes, Abdul is so. He had also rejected Islam - and so is a heretic! On the other hand, if you will manage to conquer R'lyeh or find one other random side - you'll see what he can do!

Originally Posted by Lurker_at_Threshold

I know a lot of people have been suggesting the Ottomans as being the driving force behind the late era, it just doesn't seem ideal to me. Too much of the Ottomans revolves thematically around gunpowder and cannons. An alternative replacement could be the Mamelukes. The nation could center around elite slave soldiers that successfully defended the nation from outside enemies only to eventually take power for themselves. Once again it would be holy magic centric, but as fitting for the LA, possessing much less magical diversity.

Well, there are many similarities here. Still, I know Ottomanic Turkey somewhat better - so without particular names, I used their troop types. Generally, I thought about adding several types of slave warriors, with the last being magically altered in childhood to obtain somewhat superhuman stats.
Another thing mentioned in previous discussion - I thought about making MA/Arab-based nation based on Shiite priesthood, with LA/Turkic being based more on Sunni. Anybody's opinion on this?

[Wrana]

About eras. I should probably clarify why I choose them as I did. While Crusades era is somewhat more widely heard about, coming of Seljuks changed many practices in the Middle East. This included greater dominance of mounted archers also. However, we already have at least 2 nations of mounted archers in Dominions (LA Tien Chi & Bogarus). So I think that it would be better to have nation not so one-trick - and 10th century provides many opportunities.
As for Mohammed's era - I don't think that we actually need another hoplite nation - and earliest Islamic armies were quite close...

[Squirrelloid]

Still thinking about this, but i'm going to be quite busy until the middle of august - expect more ideas or progress sometime after then.

[sevenwarlocks]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Thanks for support! Another thing not mentioned here are Berberic Corsairs. Them I also included. On the other hand - I'm against the dervishes as troop name. I'd just name the sacred troops ghazi - but if most of you won't think it silly...
And yes, Abdul is so. He had also rejected Islam - and so is a heretic! On the other hand, if you will manage to conquer R'lyeh or find one other random side - you'll see what he can do!

These ideas make the middle era sound extremely interesting to me. If the setting is roughly the zenith of the caliphate, then perhaps it should include the Martyr and the split of Islam. Perhaps you could have two kinds of priests, and after an event - such as the death of your prophet - you will have to choose which group of priests to dismiss. Or perhaps you could keep both groups of priests, but they would automatically attack each-other if you put them in the same province.

Or maybe Martyrdom could be a powerful late game spell that permanently removed your prophet from the game, but gave all your priests some great bonus - say +1 priest level and +1 blood magic.

Just thoughts. I'm not a scrpter, so I don't even know if what I'm suggesting is possible, but something that worked the split into the rp and had some game effect would be cool.

[Wrana]

David Nicolle states in his books on Saracenes (Osprey) that vaunted nomadic shoot-on the-run combat manner required up to 5 horses per each combatant. This was possible for truly nomadic tribes such as Turcomans or Mongols, but armies of Middle East Muslim states, while able to field more troopers, were not able to provide them with so much horses. On the other hand, they had horses of better lines. So: their ghulams shoot while standing drawn in disciplined ranks. This tires horses less, so they were able to protect their valuable horses with barding.
By the way, this may also explain why Crusaders didn't use barding initially: their way of combat involved more riding (ghulams charged only after opponent was into disarray from shooting), as well as why they often won straight-on confrontations: horsemen who stand and shoot almost always lost against a determined charge.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by sevenwarlocks

These ideas make the middle era sound extremely interesting to me. If the setting is roughly the zenith of the caliphate, then perhaps it should include the Martyr and the split of Islam. Perhaps you could have two kinds of priests, and after an event - such as the death of your prophet - you will have to choose which group of priests to dismiss. Or perhaps you could keep both groups of priests, but they would automatically attack each-other if you put them in the same province.

Or maybe Martyrdom could be a powerful late game spell that permanently removed your prophet from the game, but gave all your priests some great bonus - say +1 priest level and +1 blood magic.

Just thoughts. I'm not a scrpter, so I don't even know if what I'm suggesting is possible, but something that worked the split into the rp and had some game effect would be cool.

The second one is possible, though I don't think it's thematic. The first one game engine doesn't allow (you can't dismiss any units in any case...)