Spell list for CPCS v0.9

[llamabeast]

Actually I should mention I do like the fact that you're avoiding including buffs which may help Tartarians.

[VedalkenBear]

It's just that I'm not trying to change the actual game, just add more options in combat magic usage and give low-path mages more useful spells. Powerful spells "warp" the gameplay to revolve around themselves. The "auto-feeble" spell you suggested would have a single-handedly made the U/W mages most powerful mages ever. I admit that I'm doing some balance changes with this mod, notice how most buffing spells won't work on undead? Inanimates? Mindless? In there lies numereous popular SC chassises, unable to reap the benefits of this mod, perhaps allowing some new contenders in.

I think you discard the dynamic nature of strategy in your assessment of the spell, but that's fine.

So umm.. I need a point. Yeah, I'm not going for a huge change, but for a small one. This mod won't make any excisting stragedy obsolete, but try to raise others on par with them. For example, I'm afraid that "Traveller's Curse" would be too strong against SC's, nulling that stragedy option and thus making the game that less stragedically richer.

My observation to you is that strategies become obsolete for any number of reasons, and obsoleting a strategy based on technology (such as this mod) is just as valid as obsoleting a strategy based on tactics or operational methods. Actually, in this instance, it is _more_ valid because it is consensual.

I could easily argue that the current end-game of Dominions being focused on SCs and large-scale battle magic makes many strategies non-competitive. If you can enable five strategies by disabling one... what do you choose, if your goal is to increase strategic variety?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by VedalkenBear

I could easily argue that the current end-game of Dominions being focused on SCs and large-scale battle magic makes many strategies non-competitive. If you can enable five strategies by disabling one... what do you choose, if your goal is to increase strategic variety?

I'm fairly sure that an unresistable, fairly easily cast Feeblemind spell would pretty much effectively neuter the late game. You wouldn't be freeing up any strategies, you would be rendering -any- unit with less than 25 MR fairly obsolete, unless it specifically relies neither on MR, or casting ability (mundane recruitable infantry, here I come!).

[VedalkenBear]

Jim: That's just it, though. I did say 'completely unresistable'; that is, nothing protects you.

Does it 'destroy' every current late-game strategy? AFAIK, yes, it does. However, look at the current end-game. There are only 2 effective late-game strategies that I am aware of: SC combat, and large-scale battle magic. If there is a spell that gets rid of those two, what will be left? Whatever was there before those strategies came into place. If those strategies are more numerous than the ones currently available (that is, if the deprecated strategies in the current regime are greater than 2), then this spell increases strategies.

However, realize this spell is a silver bullet, and a fairly obvious one. What we are talking about is a theoretical dynamic. I don't think the actual dynamic would change very much. Since it isn't that difficult to get a mage capable of casting this spell (Kokythiad) by the late game, everyone would have this spell. People would react and find other strategies that make this spell useless. Then this spell deprecates itself due to the nature of its narrow effect.

In the end, I am not pushing for this spell. I'm simply illustrating the possibilities, and noting that the current late-game paradigm is dominant to the point of paralyzing the player base. Is this really healthy?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by VedalkenBear

In the end, I am not pushing for this spell. I'm simply illustrating the possibilities, and noting that the current late-game paradigm is dominant to the point of paralyzing the player base. Is this really healthy?

That's where we disagree. Yes, people push for late game power, and that power largely supplants the early game power. Rendering many late game options unusable, and forcing a return to early game techniques does not actually create anything, it just removes something that is demonstrably better than what it replaced, forcing reversion to the initial form.

I think that (myself included) more people would simply refuse to play in a game that had that spell available, than would jump for joy because it was there.

I simply cannot see any reason that it makes the game more fun to remove the MR check. If it were MR-resists, it is technically comparable in overall usefulness to Enslave Mind - a spell that is considered extraordinarily powerful in the game currently.

Another interesting idea, would be if it were a battlefield summons spell (can't have too many of those!), that created some "Spectral Archers" or some such, who came equipped with Bow of Botulf. Then you can fling around a bunch of Feeblemind, but it's not as directed or focused. I think this option would still be very potent, without making the most powerful endgame options suddenly completely worthless.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Actually I should mention I do like the fact that you're avoiding including buffs which may help Tartarians.

Yeah, what can I say. I guess I'm a vitalist*. Besides, death has the best summons already and skele spamming is very good battlefield stragedy and MA/LA ermor are powerful nations, why make them better?

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Do you really want land nations to be more powerful underwater? Is that a considered balance change that you think needs doing?

I am nervous of significant changes like that, because it makes the potential user base rather smaller. However, I'm prone to excessive caution in such things so feel free to take no notice.

I kinda forgot to mention that spells I'm adding will be quite.. minor. Single path, low pathcost and low level attack spells. The idea is that all mages have something to cast in underwater battle. Let's see, "Ink Strike" is N1 spell that severly poisons single guy. Acidize will be F1 AoE 1 cloud spell that does 1 damage and rusts armor (the idea is that it will only rust armor on the first round and on the second round the armor will be destroyed by the attack if the target stays in the cloud). I'll probably make Morrison's "deep drowning" pure earth1 spell and low level, and limit targets to one. Not really that powerful spells, but readily available to all nations and mages.

What I think this will change? You will see some more spells flinked in underwater, especially in the early game where it hurts most. It's kinda nuts that you have reach Evo 4 before you can have your first direct damage spell. You know, unless you're R'lyeh, in which case, Thau 2 will work fine.

On the balance discussion:

Well, Vedalkenbear said it some time ago. He his going for a large balance change and I'm going for a very minor one. The stragedic theory being thrown around is quite intresting to read. Some of Vedalkenbear ideas have merit, but it is not this mods intention to test them. Like JiMorrison said, it would be hard to make people play a mod that would do so dramatic changes.

*if you did not get the joke, read more Terry Pratchett. Your quality of life will improve.

[llamabeast]

Okay nice, sounds good then. I didn't realise the UW spells were planned to be so minor; I agree it would be fun to have at least *something* to do with your underwater fire mages.

I hope you'll excuse my little checks about the path of the mod. I just know from experience that making the things can be sufficiently exciting that checks can sometimes be useful!

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Okay nice, sounds good then. I didn't realise the UW spells were planned to be so minor; I agree it would be fun to have at least *something* to do with your underwater fire mages.

I hope you'll excuse my little checks about the path of the mod. I just know from experience that making the things can be sufficiently exciting that checks can sometimes be useful!

Yeah, it's easy to get lost in your own work. I'm the sort of person who needs checking on once in a while. Just look at Alugra, there really is some stupid ***t in there, since I was just too excited and had too many ideas to notice how clustered it got. But that's not really the point of this thread.

I only have few more spells to add. I'll have version 0.4 with all the spells on and going, before weekend. Then I'll wait for the llamabeasts grammar fixes and suggestions + do some balancing testing of my own. Then 0.4 will be destroyed and glorius and grammatically correct 0.8 will rise from the ashes. Then I'll start recruiting for the MP game.

[Burnsaber]

Ok, it's (sorta) done! We hit a nice mark of 46 new spells. Now this thread can rest in peace, as it has fulfilled its purpose. I got the spell mechanics and themes I needed, and some mental support to keep my worst enemy (me) in check.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you guys for your ideas and support. Althought I didn't add many suggested spells just as written, the ideas and themes were absolutely necessary. Your names will forever live on, etched in the mod readme-file for all eternity!

Now.. I'm going to start a SP game and check on this monstority I have released.

[VedalkenBear]

Jim: Hmm. The dynamics are interesting. I do think that Bow of Botulf-wielding summons would be just as good as what I propose. (BTW, did I mention that the Feeblemind spell is supposed to have godawful accuracy?) But then, how hard is it to get a Storm up to protect your SCs?

Also, I believe it is an exaggeration to say that removing SCs _in late game_ would necessitate a return to early game. Surely, having 2 300-piece armies face off against each other when both sides have attained level 9 research will be very different than both sides having attained level 2 research, no?

Here's another option. Is there a way to _offensively_ cast Returning on someone? That is, place the Returning 'buff' on a unit, so that when it's hit, it's teleported back to its capital?

That might have the same effect.