Jagdpanzer opinions requested.

[stormbringer3]

I'm thinking of playing a long campaign with a focus on Jagdpanzers for a change of pace. I'm thinking of starting in August 1944 for a varied selection. After viewing the the possibilties I thought I'd seek some thoughts from other players. If I don't pick the Jagdpanther, I was looking at the Nashorn or the Jpz IV/70v. The Nashorn has a great gun but appears very fragile for that stage in the war. The Jpz IV/70v states that it has a size of 2 which would be an advantage, but that that seems suspect to me especially when all the others are size 3 or higher. I am open to any ideas.
Thanks.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by stormbringer3

I'm thinking of playing a long campaign with a focus on Jagdpanzers for a change of pace. I'm thinking of starting in August 1944 for a varied selection. After viewing the the possibilties I thought I'd seek some thoughts from other players. If I don't pick the Jagdpanther, I was looking at the Nashorn or the Jpz IV/70v. The Nashorn has a great gun but appears very fragile for that stage in the war. The Jpz IV/70v states that it has a size of 2 which would be an advantage, but that that seems suspect to me especially when all the others are size 3 or higher. I am open to any ideas.

Grab that Jagdpanzer IV/70 while you can, because the size is an error that will likely be changed in some future update

There seems to be some errors in the sizes of some of these German vehicles.

It makes sense, that turretless AFVs like StuGs are slightly smaller than similar tanks. So if the Panzer III and IV are size 4, StuG III and Jagdpanzer IV should be 3.

There seems to be errors with the following units

- 507 Jpz IV/70v: Size 2, but should be size 3 like the other Jpz IV (503, 504)

- 510 Jpz IV/70a: Size 3, but should be size 4 like the Panzer IV tank. This vehicle put superstructure of the Jpz IV/70v on top of an un-modified Panzer IV hull, resulting in a big, boxy and tall vehicle, quite different from unit 507.

- 042 Jpz I: Size 2. Should be size 3 like the Panzer I, as it is of similar hieght and shape. Unit 387, another Jpz I, is the correct size.

- 578 and 856 Jpz 35f: These two are size 3, which seems fitting as they are quite similar to the Jpz I. However, the vehicle on which they were built, the Renault R35 is only size 2 in he French OOB. Still, the modification to Jpz did make it a bit taller and a bit longer than the tank on which it was originally based. So these are probably OK.

cbo

[PanzerBob]

If I'm not mistaken I believe some of the size "issues" are a reflection of the vehicles size, configuration and useage.

Bob out

[cbo]

Originally Posted by PanzerBob

If I'm not mistaken I believe some of the size "issues" are a reflection of the vehicles size, configuration and useage.

No, I think they are simply errors. You have units which represent identical vehicles with some small changes, which has nothing to do with their size, configuration or usage but they are still different size.

Like Unit 42, a Jagdpanzer I which is size 2 while unit 387 is size 2, even though it is the exactly same vehicle except having some sabot ammo and have a better chance of having radio.

Similar issues with the Jagdpanzer IVs. Unit 507 is exactly the same vehicle as unit 504, except that it has a longer gun. Still, the former is size 2 while the latter is size 3.

Incidentally, while mucking about with these vehicles, I noticed what appears to be another error with regards to the armour of the Jagdpanzer IV.

Unit 503 seems to represent the early version with the L/48 gun, produced from 3/44. If so, it should have 60mm of upper hull front armour (turret front in game terms) sloped at 50 degrees. Superstructure side armour (turret side in game terms) was 40mm sloped at 30 degrees (some sources say 30mm). Rear superstructure armour (rear turret in game terms) was 20mm sloped at 35 degrees.

Moving to the lower hull (hull in game terms), the front was 60mm at 45 degrees, the sides 30mm vertical and the rear 20mm at 11 degrees. The roof was 20mm horizontal.

The issue is made a tad more complex by the fact that the amrour values for tanks is usually turret = turret, hull = superstructure, while the lower hull values are not recorded (AFAIK it has been so since SP1)
But in case of the Jagdpanzer IV and other non-turreted vehicles, "turret" and superstructure are one unit. It appears, however, that in the ase of turretless vehicles, the hull values in the game refers to the lower hull values of the real vehicle. Has probably also been that way since time immemorial, but it does short change the non-turreted vehicles a bit compared with the tanks.
But it is, of course, a can of worms to open as it might effect all non-turreted AFVs and thus would be a huge job to correct.

Anyway, heres my take on what the Jpz IV values should be:

OOB armour/my calculation Jpz style/my calculation tank style

HF: 8/9/9
HS: 3/3/5
HR: 2/2/2
TF: 12/9/9
TS: 5/5/5
TR: 3/2/2
Top: 2/2/2

Moving to unit 504, which appears to be the later version of the Jagdpanzer IV with the L/48 gun, where front armour was increased to 80mm on front hull and superstructure. This should result the following figures:

HF: 11/11/12
HS: 4/3/5
HR: 2/2/2
TF: 12/12/12
TS: 5/5/5
TR: 3/2/2
Top: 2/2/2

Unit 507 is exactly the same vehicle as unit 504, just with a different gun, so armour should be the same:

HF: 14/11/12
HS: 3/3/5
HR: 2/2/2
TF: 12/12/12
TS: 5/5/5
TR: 3/2/2
Top: 2/2/2

Unit 510, the Jpz IV/70a, sort of makes the point. In reality, this vehicle had the lower hull and superstructure of the Panzer IV, with a "box" similar to that of the Jagdpanzer IV on top of that. How is that to be treated in the OOB?

OOB armour/my calculation, Jpz style/my calculation tank style

HF: 10/8/8
HS: 4/3/4
HR: 2/2/2
TF: 12/12/12
TS: 5/5/5
TR: 3/2/2
Top: 2/2/2

Any comments are of course welcome

cbo

[chuckfourth]

Hi Stormbringer
The nashorn is a "sniper tank" it was particularily suitable to the wide open spaces of Russia. It could stand in plane sight in an open space and pick off t34s at extreme range before they could get close enough to hit it. Hence its lack of heavy armour
From
http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...d.php?p=270870

"The most notable Nashorn ace was platoon commander of 1st company of sPzJagAbt 519, Junior Lieutenant (later Captain) Albert Ernst. On December 23rd of 1943, he destroyed some 14 Soviet tanks in a single day using only 21 rounds of ammunition."

see if you can do that in game!

[Marek_Tucan]

If you have a crew with high XP rating and the random number generator favors you, you can

[DRG]

Exactly. If you're going to use the very best crew as an example of what a unit is capable of then to test the game set the crew in the game to the very best rating as well.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Claus
Actually I dont think that the jagdpanzer IV's size of 2 is an error. I think the OOB designer gave it a height of 2 because of its exceptionally low profile, ie to model the difficuly of hitting such a low target. It has a height of just 1.85m, the same height as the Italian sermovettes(unit 009 for example) which also get a size of 2. Its just 25 cm higher than the bren gun carrier which has a size 2 also. the Jgpz IVs with size 3 are probably the mistakes.
Chuck.

[PanzerBob]

Good day all,

I don't have the game here and I'm not sure what my examples are sized at, however, here are the heights of the JgdPzIV's with some other Panzers to compare them to.

JgdPzIV L/48 1.85m
JgdPzIV /70(A) 2.35m
JgdPzIV /70(V) 1.85m

PanzerIV Ausf H 2.68m
JagdPanther 2.72m
Panther Ausf G 3.00m

IMHO JgdPzIV /70(A) should be a 3 as it is a half a meter taller.

Bob out