Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed

[Chacal]

Sombre,

You have a very intersting idea with that Warhammer wagon, and have found how to fire and move ! For my part i'll probably do two wagons, one clearly defensive with crossbows and a melee attack, and one offensive version with mostly melee weapons and maybe a short range ranged attack with low munitions just like javelins.

I will probably use idea you and Tichy suggest of disabling horses, will do some test.

Mine is for now returning to it's basic form only from form 2 (it has 4) and is eliminated at the end of battle in form 4 ( I consider it's too much damaged, crew is dispersed etc...)

In attachement you may see a very basic version of my full crew wagon, still needs improvements and original horses but it's better than using elephants for tests

[Aezeal]

personally I'm not so much for new races, I usually play games with the races as is.. but a special province which anyone could find that would not change balance (I have this strange idea the game as is is balanced, I know it's not but it's the balance the makers gave it so it how it was meant to be , silly me

anyway a "tech" province with warwagons (I'd totally see this a a gnome laboratory (D&D gnomes) creating one strange thing after another (warwagons (in different sizes) and other strange stuff, guns maybe.. yea I'd like that much better than a separate race)

OW and use em as mercs... same reason equal acces to all = always balanced

[Cor2]

Are you still thinking about killing the horses?
I just ask because it does not seem to fit with dom3 standards. We have lots of mounted units and chariots and of the few that do have 2 forms its always the mount that lives not the rider, regardless of respective armour ratings.

[Chacal]

Good point Cor2,

For now I'm trying both solutions and still not decided, I will probably go with the most playable, fun one, but the point you underline is important as I try to integer the best my litlle mod in the Dom3 world. The fact of not killing horses would also simplify the unit and it's 'readibility' by players.

Aezeal :

I understand your point about straight not modded game, personally I'm developping this mod mostly for my own use cause I would like some east european mythology in the game . About balancing the races : in fact I don't care too much when a race (or unit) is underpowered, I just don't want it to be too strong. Dom 3 races are not all balanced but after all Dom3 world is not fair and I like it that way.

[Autochthon]

Well, going off of the Wagenburg used in the Hussite Wars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagenburg

To start with, I'd have to consider something that large (Size equiv to Elephnant?) to be a Construct. This means it has good Protection, zero Defense, lots of HP and no issues with Morale

Being Wood, it would also be Vulnerable to Fire [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img]

It would not be Sacred, with a high Resource Cost relative to its Gold cost.

Based on historical laagering tactics, they would have a Move of 1 in the field, but would be Immobile on the battlefield.

Essentially, the Wagenburg would simply be mobile battlefield barricades, backed by a contingent of troops. Not a bad tactic for dealing with chaff-heavy armies.

[Sombre]

I wouldn't have it as a high hp construct, because enemies attacking it would obviously go for the crew rather than hacking at the wood.

[Chacal]

Autochton : Using it as a moving barricade is historical, but i'm not sure it's the only way I will do it. For now I have constructed 2 wagons. One will work as you give the example, a defensive way, not moving, firing a lot of crossbow shots. The other one will rather move to contact of the enemy.

I'm now decided to use the multiple 10hp forms. It works well and is more fun.

The mapmove is 2 to let it go with most infantry armies.

I will maybe give it the fire vulnerability mostly for fun and to give it a vulnerability, even if IMO, a wood wagon would probably not burn so easly.

As for the resource gold cost :
The resource cost of the Crossbow WarWagon would be those of 3 crossbow, 1 Spear, 4 armors and helmets, plus a cost for the WarWagon itself. I'll have to decide about the gold cost too.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's my suggestion: Start it with relatively few hp but a high parry, trample size 4, and a decent movement. Have a second form that is immobile and can fire arrows but isn't a construct, again with low hp but higher prot replacing the high parry. And then a third form that is an immobile construct with lots of hp and decent prot, but has no attack.

All forms would be vulnerable to fire.

That would get you a front line of shock troops which would be able to mow down chaff troops, and then provide light missle support and some protection against charges in the form of size 4 barricades.

[Sombre]

I just finished my beta code for the Empire War Wagon and I thought I'd share it on here, in case people were interested. Many of the values may/will change, this version was just for testing, where it did exactly what I thought it would and generally kicked ***. If you can't 'read' mod code refer to my previous post about the War Wagon in this thread.




-------- New Weapons


---- War Wagon Form 1 Longrange

#newweapon 680
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 30
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 1 Midrange

#newweapon 681
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 20
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 1 and 2 Shortrange

#newweapon 682
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 10
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 3 Midrange

#newweapon 683
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 30
#ammo 5
#nratt 3
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 2 and 3 Melee

#newweapon 684
#name "Crew Polearms"
#dmg 7
#att 1
#nratt 3
#def 0
#length 5
#end



---- Hook Halberd

#newweapon 685
#name "Hook Halberd"
#dmg 10
#att 2
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end


---- Ball and Chain

#newweapon 686
#name "Ball and Chain"
#dmg 6
#flail
#nratt 2
#att 0
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end


---- Mancatcher

#newweapon 687
#name "Mancatcher"
#dmg 11
#armorpiercing
#att -2
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end

------- New Armour

---- Wagon Cover

#newarmor 281
#name "Wagon Cover"
#type 4
#prot 15
#enc 0
#def 2
#enc -2
#rcost 1
#end


------ New Monsters


---- War Wagon (Two Horses)


#newmonster 2466
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#name "War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 12
#size 5
#prot 5
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 1
#str 10
#att 10
#def 10
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 18
#trample
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 680
#weapon 681
#weapon 682
#weapon 684
#secondshape 2467
#end



---- War Wagon (One Horse)


#newmonster 2467
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#name "War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 12
#size 5
#prot 8
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 10
#def 9
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#trample
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 682
#weapon 684
#secondshape 2468
#firstshape 2466
#end


---- War Wagon (Immobile)


#newmonster 2468
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon Immobile.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon Immobile.tga"
#name "Immobilised War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 24
#size 4
#prot 14
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 10
#def 8
#prec 12
#mapmove 0
#ap 2
#immobile
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 683
#weapon 685
#weapon 686
#weapon 687
#firstshape 2466
#end


Ignore stuff like the sprite code and costs and whatnot, as I said, just for testing. Basically the War Wagon fires at long range, then medium, then short, then tramples, then finally sits there and fights/shoots.