Malfador, Bring back retreat option from SEIII

[Marco]

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I mentioned earlier that forward retreats have to be limited somehow. I thought SE3 did pretty well by simply basing retreat direction on map edge used. Thus, it was possible (in tactical combat, anyway) to break through enemy forces, but only if you actually did so in tactical combat.
PvK
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Sadly I never played SE III, nevertheless I agree this is a possible valid solution, but my question was about the strategic implications of this tactic, specially for AI players. In the situation of a warp point defended by a blocking fleet, how the defender can counter the tactic of waves of fasts ships slipping trough the blockade by forward retreat ? If the forward retreating ships are not pursued, they are free to attack the supposed defended quadrant, if they are pursued, the defending fleet must abandon his blockade position, may be allowing other enemy ships, with movement left, to enter the quadrant. This situation is difficult to handle even for a human player and I doubt a effective counter tactic can be developed for AI. This would eventually result in an advantage for the attacking player, specially against AI defending players, which can unbalance the game.
But this is just my opinion, may be in SE III forward retreat works fine.
Marco.

[PvK]

With tactical combat in SE III, you can use a warp point to retreat, which I always thought was neat and appropriate.

In SEIII I think the AI won't use warp points when retreating, but will run for the nearest map edge, so it is possible to break through a warp point IF your ships are fast enough or survivable enough to get through the defenders intact. In fact, I remember designing warp point blockade runner ships with retreat orders to try to do this versus a human player blocking a warp point, although I didn't end up using them.

With the defender firing first (as of Gold), I would expect the situation to be OK - a warp point defense fleet would get to bLast anything coming through, but it might be possible to try to break through - sounds interesting rather than a balance problem to me.

A ship that manages to break through a warp point will need a speed advantage of two to be able to elude pursuit from the defenders in turn-based mode. With retreat implemented though, it seems like a "pursue" yes/no order might be called for for simultaneous mode games.

To work really well, the whole issue will doubtless want some careful design, then testing and tweaking, and should probably be an option that can be turned off if desired.

PvK

[Marco]

Thanks for yours explanations PvK, curiously I even didn’t think at the problem of warp point in these terms, I used to place blockade fleets on the side of the warp points in the defended quadrant, to avoid detection, and every corner of the tactical map would then be good for breaking through. Nevertheless I agree with you, if in SE 4 Gold the defender is always firing and moving first (sorry, I didn’t played the demo) the balance problem is solved.
Marco.

[PvK]

Ya, if you defend the far (enemy's) side of the warp point, then even in SE3 (where warp points can be used during combat) the AI won't be able to "retreat forward," since retreat will just back them away from the warp point. So in order to warp-point-blockade-run, you'd need to hold your own side of the WP, warp, use retreat, and hope to survive the defenders and still have a 2-point speed advantage on the far side.

PvK

[Marco]

Another thought: my question was wrong because, if I understand correctly, in SE 3 you can place the blocking fleet in your side of warp point and surround it with a circle of others ships, even only one in each place, and in this case the blockade runner enemy ships cannot “forward retreat” because there isn’t a place where retreat without enemy ships. I’m correct?
Thanks.
Marco.

[dmm]

Yeah, Marco has a good point. Although:
a) the AI is never going to do that, and
b) you would need 8 ships per warp point if the WPs aren't at the system edge (and otherwise, you'd still need 5 per WP)

Question1: In SEIII retreat, can you go diagonally? If not, that reduces problem b) by a factor of 2.
Question2: Do mines/satellites/fighters count as unfriendly units to prevent retreat? If they do, then warp point defense isn't much harder at all.

[Suicide Junkie]

A) You can go diagonally, but you have to hit one of the four tactical squares in the exact corner of the map. Possible to arrange in tactical, extremely rare in strategic

B) I believe they do.

[PvK]

Marco, yes in SE3 you can put an unarmed escort in each sector around your side, to prevent forward retreat by any survivors of the defense. Or, you can just defend the far side, and not have to.

dmm, for #1, SJ is right. For #2, in SE3 there are no satellites and fighters can deploy strategically - as for mines I don't know - I expect the minefields would have to be detected for them to block retreat, but haven't tested it.

Personally, I tend to think that defending the far side is good enough, and having a chance to break through defenses set up on their own side is more interesting than it is any sort of problem.

PvK