Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.

[Epoletov_SPR]

web page The following work was accomplished during the mounting of the new turret on the KV-1S: the under-turret box, in which the enlarged-diameter ring of the improved tank turret fit with difficulty, was widened. The basic load of 70 main gun rounds was stored in improved racks. With the placing of the gun and the ammunition racks, the designers had to delete the fifth crewmember -the gunner-radio operator, for whom there was no longer any space. The hull-mounted DT machine-gun, which previously was carried in a movable ball mounting, was now fixed. The power pack, transmission, and suspension components were taken straight from the KV-1S.

The first KV-85s were re-worked from excess KV-1S hulls, welding up the hole for the ball-mounted hull machine gun. The incorrect opinion has appeared in Western literature that there was a "second version" of the KV-85 with a flexible front machine gun. This confusion most likely arose as a result of study by Western experts of the only KV-85 tank that has been preserved to this day (monument in Avtovo, St.Peterburg), where a mistake was made in the restoration process. According to archival data, 148 KV-85 tanks were produced; they were sent to the front beginning in September 1943. Simultaneously, output of the KV-1S tank was continued until December 1943.

[Guardian_SPR]

I'll dig around for more photos that can hopfully clear this up. I can see where I missed that part of the quote earlier. However.....

shows no "fixed" MG on the part of the hull that the one in post #497298 does but does hint at a ball mount on the other side of the front hull and that could easily be "fixed" and not flexible

It is KV-1S with 85mm gun (not KV-85). Take attention on turret:

[Nox]

Ok, after looking all the sources stated here I am quite convinced that only 1 KV prototype operated in the Summa sector of Mannerheim line during the Winterwar. As said it was a prototype which suffered all sorts of problems, but due to hurrying it was desided by the Soviets to put it in mass production nearly as it was. Renaming to KV-1 model 1939 which has caused confucion as to when the tank was fullu available. So the model name (1939) is not for production start time but for first prototype appearance. Full production started sometime in late March 1940.

Also in March after the war was already over 2 KV prototypes (whit 152mm gun) were tested against already empty Mannerheim line forts. These tanks were a direct response to upgun the KV-1 to destroy forts. It was aproved after the test and further production started in 1940 whit the name of KV-2.

So the notion of KV-1 tank(s) in plural refers to all these three (3) KV tank prototypes of which only one piece (a KV-1 m1939 prototype) actualy saw some combat in the winterwar in the already mentioned Summa sector.

----

Btw. just watched a documnetary on Discovery Channel about the KV-tanks. It showed footange from destroyed T-26 tanks in Winterwar saying it was from Spanish civil war. Gets better when there was a picture of Finland as it was after 1944 and it placed the Mannerheim line where the Salpa line is locaded about 100km off from its correct location!

Then the best part when tens of KV-1 tanks are said to have attacked in the village of Summa whit finnish troops destroying them all whit molotov cocktails. On the backgroud footage of KV-85 and JS-2 tanks attacking against Germans sometime in 1944 or 1945 is shown.

I would rate the document hopelesly inaccurate in its historical accuracy, but it did show that the myth of massed KV-1 tanks being used in winterwar is existing at least somewhere. It is not in any Finnish history books nor does it make any sence, so where the myth came is a complete mystery to me.

[Nox]

One possible way to correct this would be to change KV-1 m1939 availability to April 1940. Then add a new KV prototype tank whit it's own class and formation whit availability of December 1939- to March 1940. This way the AI would not buy KV tanks in winterwar and players would know that it is a prototype, but still be able to buy it if they like.

[pdoktar]

Hey Discovery channel is all about discoveries.. right? So nothing wrong there.

I love it when they talk about DU ammo and show M109s shooting indirect fire.