SAM Question

Marcello · #1 February 17th, 2007, 08:27 AM

Are there game conventions for calculating SAM warheads parameters?
Or in other words assuming the real world warhead specs are available how do you proceed to calculate
Warhead size, HE penetration and HE kill?

Mobhack · #2 February 17th, 2007, 10:16 AM

Find one that has the same sort of characteristics in the OOBS and then work your new one in from there.

Cheers
Andy

DRG · #3 February 17th, 2007, 10:17 AM

It's been quite a while since those were set up in the game and I wasn't invloved with that aspect of it but I'll see what I can dig up from the old notes

Which type of "SAM" are you asking about? The small man portable type SAM of the larger variety ?

Don

Marcello · #4 February 17th, 2007, 11:16 AM

"Find one that has the same sort of characteristics in the OOBS and then work your new one in from there."

That is exactly what I was doing but it has occurred to me that if some sort of official convention was available I would like to hear about it. Besides by reviewing the stats I got the impression that different OOB designers followed different conventions, so the choice of what to pick up as a benchmark may be complicated in some cases.

"Which type of "SAM" are you asking about? The small man portable type SAM of the larger variety?"

Short range systems basically, like SA-7/14/16/18 IR MANPADS, somewhat bigger vehicle mounted IR systems like
SA-9/13 and short range radar guided systems like SA-19 and Roland. I am not overtly concerned with the bigger radar guided SAMs like SA-2/3/10 and such.

DRG · #5 February 17th, 2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Marcello said:

<snip> by reviewing the stats I got the impression that different OOB designers followed different conventions, so the choice of what to pick up as a benchmark may be complicated in some cases.

That may be what happened..... maybe...... and one reason we have these error reports to deal with. It sometimes comes down to this, A unit is created then cloned to other nations and sometimes renamed to make them more "Historically accurate" for that nation then, at some point, someone finds new info and corrects one version and *maybe* the others in other OOB's named the same ( that they know about )but generally the ones that get renamed get missed. THAT'S one of the big problems with working with OOB's where each nation has their own weapons list and not how we would have liked to do it. Working with a game like this that is years old and built up in layers ( and written for an entirely different operating system )is that at some point you realize it would have been better to do things differently but your already up to your neck in what you've got and there are only two options... go on with what you have or give up.

You tell me what SAM's don't match the others of the same type and I'll look into it.

SAM's have never really been an issue with anyone that I'm aware ( finding problems is usually a matter of noting the size of the mob with the pitchforks and the torches outside the window

. We haven't seen any with regards to SAMs......yet ) most of those units and weapons were created by others right at the start ( some of the stats may go back to SP2 ) I checked some of the notes and there are guidelines for many things but not SAMs so it looks like it was handled the way Andy suggested.

Don

Marcello · #6 February 17th, 2007, 05:11 PM

The issue is not precisely that there are missiles with the same name but different stats. The issue is that there are different missiles whose stats seems to be written using different lines of reasoning. Example

1) OOB 11 (Russia), weapon 142 (9M311 Tunguska), various users (unit 405,406 etc.)
WH size: 9
HE penetration: 9
HE kill: 9

In the real world is a radar guided missile with a 9 Kg warhead, supposedly with a fairly elaborate arrangement for causing maximum splinters

2) OOB 6 (France), weapon 242 (Roland II SACP), various users (unit 55,57 etc.)
WH size: 8
HE penetration: 4
HE kill: 4

In the real world is a radar guided missile with a 6.5 Kg warhead, supposedly with an elaborate arrangement for causing splinters, albeit it may not be as sophisticated as the one used by the SA-19.

3) OOB 11 (Russia), weapon 143 (9M313 Igla-1), various users (unit 409,758 etc.)
WH size: 4
HE penetration: 8
HE kill: 8

In the real world it is a Igla series MANPAD. The stats seem to be out of the line with the other Igla (like weapon 75 and 132) which have HE kill/HE penetration around 3-4.

Now, I get the suspicion that in the first case someone read 9 Kg and just put 9 in all the parameters. Whatever it was the missile seems reasonably lethal when it hits (test against USAF F-16s in 2007), as probably it should.The Roland 2 seems unable to bring down F-16s even with three hits on the same plane (tested mutiple times). This got me curious about the various warhead parameters and how they were calculated.

Marcello · #7 February 17th, 2007, 09:17 PM

"SAM's have never really been an issue with anyone that I'm aware"

I suspect that is because people do not buy them often in first place (I mean, something more than a few MANPADS) and their effects are more difficult to evaluate. Therefore discrepancies are not going to be noticed. It took a lot of tests before I figured out how ineffective the Roland 2 actually was.

Marcello · #8 February 18th, 2007, 06:31 AM

If nothing else is available is it at least possible to know, in general terms, what the game does with those three parameters? For example what is more important: WH size or HE penetration/HE kill?

DRG · #9 February 18th, 2007, 09:38 AM

All three are interrelated and each affect the game for different reasons. For the purposes of knocking down an aircraft HEK and HEP have a greater affect but WH size is used for many things, resupply from a ammo dump for one though that isn't a main issue it is still and issue so cannot be ignored. You want to get the WH size not too big and not too small. Sound , for some weapons is keyed to WH size but I'm not sure if that factors in for SAMs

The thing to do is build some test units in the game and then set up a test range and see how this all interacts. I know this sounds a bit vague but as I said, SAM's were set up years ago and I wasn't directly involved in that part of the process and until yesterday nobody had asked about them and I cannot find any notes specific to them and ATM I'm busy with the WW2 patch.

When I have more time to dig into this I will and put a better answer together. I'm just not in a position ATM to drop what I'm doing.

However, FWIW here is a data base dump of all 646 SAM's in the game ordered by WH size. As I've said, this hasn't been touched really for years so I have no doubt you will find errors where the same missle is different from one nation to another. These are things we fix when we discover a problem. However, if may help you with your question

Don

Suhiir · #10 April 24th, 2007, 09:47 PM

I don't waste points on man-portable (and many SP) SAMs, they may on occasion actually hit an aircraft and once in a blue moon shoot one down but for the most part they very VERY rarely effect a bomb run. I actually like it when the AI wastes a bunch of points on one pass aircraft.