Some help with Pan please?

[tinkthank]

I started off playing dom2 with Pan, and enjoyed quite a bit (I like stealth), got my feet wet, until I started playing MP, then moved on. I recently returned, because of old fond memories and whatnot, and am a bit confused. I have a bunch of questions, but I think I will split em up into two Groups, one for New Era and one for Default, with the exception of one major question:
Magic.
I have gotten to know (and like!) the Nature magic of Machaka, especially mixed in with Death. The path of Construction is just so wonderful with Manikin etc., and the lovely Death summons....
I have gotten to know (and cherish) Astral magic with TC, and Fire magic with Abysia and Machaka, Air magic with TC and Van and Caelum ...... etc.
But what do I do with E2Nature3? I really dont have a plan.
Sure, I can summon Vine ogres, and the occasional expensive animal. And I can try for GoH -- but I dont really need that as Pan with all that nice recup, do I?
What about battlefield magic? Besides Howl tied in with sneaky attacks, I just dont know what to do. Your tips are greatly appreciated!
Also, as you can see below, I have problems with research.

Now, on to some specific questions:

NEW ERA
- Who is going to research? Yikes. I seem hard pressed with NE to afford a magic scale, but even with magic1 I feel like I am crushed without a sage. I cant make any research-boosters either.
- No random. Ouch! I have never played a nation with no randoms before. None whatsoever, it's like Ulm. (Which I dont play...) I think e2n2?1 would make more sense (less tree-hugging, more steel), but c'est la vie -- this just seems to force me to take a rainbow. But I really dont want to, that just seems so unthematic.
- No centaur bowmen. Why not? I think they would fit very well thematically, but who cares what I think. I dislike recruit indies, because I that just bugs me from a RPG standpoint, but so what. What do you do? Since I dont see myself with big damage-dealing battlefield spells as NE (which ones?), unlike Abysia, I feel I need some archer power. What do you do? Alternatively, a Staff of Storms would be nice -- but then I need a bunch of air for that and a forger of at least a3.
- Magic. See above. I cant figure it out. No randoms, e2n3. What are some good goals, on and off the b-field?

Basically, I want to really like New Era (I like tree hugging and minotaurs), but I just cant find the groove. Can you help me?

DEFAULT
- With a bit of Turmoil, I feel that I can afford a magic scale easier, but not too much easier. Still, who does the researching?
- How much Turmoil, if any, do you take?
- What do you do with Pandemoniacs? I want to use them, but a unsacred 350-gold Bloodhunter is a bit steep, and I need blood to be able to do anything with him, it seems. Or am I missing something?
- Default pan is even sneakier than NE -- it would be great to see some nice stealthy-tips, especially from people like Gandalf, who is obviously a Pan-sneaky-Pro. What do you say to sharing the wisdom?!?

Thanks much in advance.

[Boron]

I would rate the Pans one of the 3 best national combat mages .

Spells :
-Eagle eye
-summon earthpower
-weapons of sharpness
-petrify
-charm
-mass regeneration
-relief
-swarm
-mass protection
-blade wind
-invulnerability
-legions of steel
-strength of giants

With F pick : Magma eruption
With S pick : Gifts from heaven
With A pick : Rain of stones

That enables you to choose the "right" battle spell for almost any situation .

Rituals :
-Globals : GoH , Mother oak and Haunted forest can be cast with only 1 Nature booster , with random earth pick + earth boots + blood stone you can cast Forge of ancients .
-Earthmagic : gives you mainly mechanical men and iron dragons with random earth pick + 1 earth booster
-Blood magic : X-breed + dark vines can be useful , furthermore in midgame you have the option to forge blood stones
-Nature magic : Lamia queens to give you access to death , firbolgs as thugs , Ivy kings , Vine ogres and fairy queens for air , coatl for astral .
Finally with a F pick you can forge fever fetishes .

Research can be done relatively easy for both normal + new age pan with magic 3 + dryads . That is 6 rp for 110 sacred gold creatures .

Don't take turmoil , i did it in sp a few times but the maenads are really bad and don't even fulfill their role as fodder good enough .


I still would only play pan cw in mp because i haven't found a god design for them yet that pleases me . So far the really expensive Pans have frightened me off . 23.33 upkeep per Pan is horrible . So even with 1500 gold income you could only pay the upkeep for about 60 Pans if i would use my money almost solely for them .

[quantum_mechani]

tinkthank said:
NEW ERA
- Who is going to research? Yikes. I seem hard pressed with NE to afford a magic scale, but even with magic1 I feel like I am crushed without a sage. I cant make any research-boosters either.
- No random. Ouch! I have never played a nation with no randoms before. None whatsoever, it's like Ulm. (Which I dont play...) I think e2n2?1 would make more sense (less tree-hugging, more steel), but c'est la vie -- this just seems to force me to take a rainbow. But I really dont want to, that just seems so unthematic.
- No centaur bowmen. Why not? I think they would fit very well thematically, but who cares what I think. I dislike recruit indies, because I that just bugs me from a RPG standpoint, but so what. What do you do? Since I dont see myself with big damage-dealing battlefield spells as NE (which ones?), unlike Abysia, I feel I need some archer power. What do you do? Alternatively, a Staff of Storms would be nice -- but then I need a bunch of air for that and a forger of at least a3.
- Magic. See above. I cant figure it out. No randoms, e2n3. What are some good goals, on and off the b-field?

Basically, I want to really like New Era (I like tree hugging and minotaurs), but I just cant find the groove. Can you help me?

I have been playing a lot of new era lately, and here is what I've come up with.

Troops:
My NE games revolve around dryad hopilites, even without bless, 5 of these with a dryad leading them can often take indies with no losses. A quick expansion greatly increases your chances of finding independants that will open up your magic. In other castles, I go for saytr hopilites most of the time, unless I somehow didn't find any indie mages, so use the gold on grove gaurds. When you say they should have centaur bowman, I assume you mean the priest commanders, as the troops are sadly so overpriced that I would not even consider them.

Magic:
Even if you don't find sages, dryds make fine researchers,
on par with most other nations. If it is a very small map (like urgaia)you can often mostly ignore magic, just getting to call of the wild to spend your gems. If you do want to go magic, I would advise taking 5 nature on your pretender and rushing for alteration 5. This can lead to casting Mother Oak on turn 15; with site searching you should end up with plenty of gems for your mages to work with. As someones else mentioned, you can go a lot of places with nature, lamia queens get you access to sorcery, fairy queens get you air (a long way off though, may want to put some on your pretender instead). Your mages have earth, so the only thing missing is fire and water (the weakest paths) which you can still get if you want through pretender or indies.

tinkthank said:
DEFAULT
- With a bit of Turmoil, I feel that I can afford a magic scale easier, but not too much easier. Still, who does the researching?
- How much Turmoil, if any, do you take?
- What do you do with Pandemoniacs? I want to use them, but a unsacred 350-gold Bloodhunter is a bit steep, and I need blood to be able to do anything with him, it seems. Or am I missing something?
- Default pan is even sneakier than NE -- it would be great to see some nice stealthy-tips, especially from people like Gandalf, who is obviously a Pan-sneaky-Pro. What do you say to sharing the wisdom?!?

I'm afraid that unless you are using Zen's scale mod, turmoil is still not worth it for maenads. If you have your Panii out in about on the edge o your dominion (or really luck out and find a site causing turmoil), you will still get some. The dryads are an even better buy than NE, still average researchers and stealth leaders, now also good stealth priests. I should also note the 15-turns-to mother-oak-strategy works well for base too. Pandomoniacs are not something you make a lot of most of the time, but 2 or 3 of them are good for your blood forging needs. The best stealth troops are centaur warriors and revelers, the best stealth leader is hard to say, Panii, Dryads, and Hierophants are all good choices depending on your strategy and enemy.

[odd_enuf]

for the CW pans, use twiceborn, then leave a safe indy farmlands province in your domain to kill themselves off with, make sure they cast personal regen so they don't get too many afflictions. The wight mage they turn into are upkeep free, and you might even get an extra level of death.

odd_enuf

[Graeme Dice]

tinkthank said:
- How much Turmoil, if any, do you take?

None, ever, for any theme that does not require it. Maenads are not worth losing 42% of your income and more than 42% of your purchasing power.

You want order 3, sloth 3, magic 2-3, then pick whatever else you want. Dryads make fine researchers with or without a magic scale. Buy centaur warriors. They can take on even air queens that aren't equipped properly, and bane lords are little problem either. 30 centaur warriors vs. 30 hypaspist's will usually end with 1-2 dead centaurs and a total loss for Arco.

Then you can ramp up for alteration 5 very quickly to cast mother oak, then conjuration 6 to start pumping out lamias.

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:
Buy centaur warriors. They can take on even air queens that aren't equipped properly, and bane lords are little problem either. 30 centaur warriors vs. 30 hypaspist's will usually end with 1-2 dead centaurs and a total loss for Arco.

Hm i never looked properly at the Centaur Warrior but you are right they look quite good .
Would you say that they are costwise the most economical cavalry in the game ?

The only really worthy competitor i can think of would be the Van but probably only a van with a good bless can be victorious .

Stuff like a knight of the chalice wins vs. a Centaur Warrior 1on1 but since not many can be bought they should not be considered

[tinkthank]

Hey thanks a lot.
Didnt understand these small points however, or have further questions about them:
- Maneads not good as fodder? H�h? They worked beautifully for me as ... fodder. For nothing else, of course. What makes them bad fodder? They are, in fact, berserker fodder!
- 42% of purchasing power? Well I only tried Turmoil-1, not3, and I got quite a few Maneads that way. I have never taken the sloth scale, since it also affects income -- do you find that the income reduction due to sloth is worth the 40 points if you have order-3 already?
Thank you very much, this is all very helpful.

PS. Gandalf, would you also ever consider posting about Pan strategy?

[jeffr]

I've used blessed white centaurs to good effect. Of course, the rest of my strategy sucked (crappy magic, worse scales, mediocre pretender), but the white centaurs were pretty strong.