Poor AI

Fuerte · #1 June 12th, 2001, 09:34 PM

I am playing the tutorial to the finish, so that I learn how to build stealth ships. I know that now. But when I had conquered over half of the galaxy, I decided to leave my empire to full AI, and see how it plays the game. I was surprised how bad the AI is.

1) Immediately it began to build a huge amount of population transports and some defence stations (far away from the enemy). In about two turns my positive mineral production was ruined from +20000 to -50000 or something. My empire was not able to build anything. I had to scrap all these transports and bases and many other ships to get a positive mineral production again. I had to do the scrapping twice before it remained positive.

2) The resupply routines are broken. I had several ships which had attacked or explored the galaxy, and they had no fuel left. I had a colony ship nearby which was going to colonize a planet and build a resupply facility. AI decided to move these ships back from this new colony, the return trip would have taken about 30 turns. If AI would have waited for the new planet, they would have been refuelled in about 4 turns. And what was the worst, these ships had to go through a black hole system. You can guess what happened to them, because they could only move one square at the turn, and the black hole sucked them two squares at the turn.

3) When AI had build a new attack ship, it sent it to front line. The problem here is that sometimes it moved the ship back for some reason. It moved one ship forwards for two turns, then one turn back, and then again forward. I don't know what it was thinking, maybe it was the resuppy routine again. Once it moved one ship forward for two turns and then back to the starting point for two turns.

4) When AI decided to colonize a planet, it could build the colonizer ship in the other end of the galaxy, and move it all the way from there.

The problem with this bad AI is that you really can't play with the computer, PBEM is the only choice. And if you want to give any control to the ministers, you should double check what it is doing every turn or you will be surprised.

Alpha Kodiak · #2 June 12th, 2001, 10:27 PM

While there are problems with the AI, there are a few things that can make it more enjoyable to play against. The first thing is to make sure you have the latest patch, because the AI has been improving over time. The second is to try some of the Mods that are available. I use the TDM modpack, and there are some challenging races in there. There are some other Mods that also improve play, from my understanding.

You can also try putting limitations on yourself. If you search this forum for a thread called "The neutral challenge", you will find an interesting way to play that can make it very tough on you.

In short, while there are weaknesses in the AI, you can play in such a way that the computer is still fun to play against.

[This message has been edited by Alpha Kodiak (edited 12 June 2001).]

Nitram Draw · #3 June 12th, 2001, 10:41 PM

It might also depend on the race you used. Did you create your own race? If so I think you use the default ministers when you switch to computer control. If you were to use a custom race then their AI would run your ministers.

jc173 · #4 June 12th, 2001, 11:02 PM

Definately get the TDM modpack. It doesn't change the tech and or mess with any of the game's rules, but it does script the AI's to act more intelligently or efficiently.

Plus if you swapped from a human control race to all ministers on it's probably using one of the default scripts agressive/neutral/defensive unless you checked the option to use the race style's ministers. Those three scripts are pretty bad.

Get the modpack though, you'll see a big difference. I find that the Modpack Sergetti (Sp?), Rage, and XiChung to be very agressive and intelligent opponents.

Pnakotic · #5 June 13th, 2001, 03:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jc173:
Definately get the TDM modpack. It doesn't change the tech and or mess with any of the game's rules, but it does script the AI's to act more intelligently or efficiently...
...Get the modpack though, you'll see a big difference. I find that the Modpack Sergetti (Sp?), Rage, and XiChung to be very agressive and intelligent opponents.

Unfortunately, the Modpack can't do anything to improve the underlying *hardcoded* problems with the AI in SEIV. The Modpack does a pretty good in making AI ship design and production more efficient. But the real showstopper is that the AI has very little idea of what it's doing or what it should be doing in a strategic sense (FYI, I'm not even talking about tactical combat - just the overall strategic play of the game). It really comes down to two main issues:

1) The AI has some very obvious problems when it comes to deciding what its goals are each turn. It tends to fortify starsystems with little to no strategic value while often leaving its important systems wide open for attack. SEIV AI really needs to be taught the "choke-point" concept, as well as how to tell the difference between important targets and unimportant targets. Coordinating the movements/attacks of ships and fleets is also something SEIV is fairly bad at. It mostly comes down to goal-setting; SEIV AI just tends to wander around without a plan

2) What happened Last turn? SEIV obviously doesn't know. If any code for turn-to-turn goal inheritance exists within SEIV, it sure isn't working. This apparently leaves the AI with the job of re-evaluating its goals each turn from scratch. SEIV has a lot of potential, but it's been a long time since I've seen a strategy game with AI that had so many problems coordinating and following through with attacks, goals and battle plans.

Basically, SEIV's AI seems to suffer from a combination of Attention Deficit Disorder and Amnesia. No mod is going to be able to fix that.

PS - Try not to take offense. I'm not trying to bash MM, SEIV or any of the fine modmakers out there. I'm just pointing out that the real problems are beyond the scope of any mod (even one as good as the Modpack--which I myself play SEIV with).

jc173 · #6 June 13th, 2001, 06:09 AM

Oh I agree, the AI does seem to be very odd in the way it chooses to make strategic decisions. The lack of memory other than the anger rating also annoys me to no end also. What would be nice is if the ministers could be managed by an Uber minister which had some sort of memory of what has happened and what the intentions and long term goals fo the race were.

To be honest though I think it would be difficult to teach the AI what territory is important and what isn't because of changes that can be made with stellar manip. The other thing IMHO is that part of the reason the AI doesn't seem so smart is that SEIV is so open ended. It's relatively easy to design an AI to cope with a limited number of situations and scenarios, but to design one for a game in which almost anything can be changed has to be difficult at the very least. I guess it's a trade off of sorts. The AI is a passable opponent for me, I don't know maybe I'm more of a tactical person than a strategic one <G>. I find that I do have to handicap myself occasionally so as not to take unfair advantages, but I think that's the case with a fair amount of games out there... the players will always think of some off the wall sneaky tactic the designers never conceived of.

#7 June 13th, 2001, 07:00 AM

The way the AI is now makes it unpredictable. That may be the intended effect. You never know if a fleet passing through is going to warp onwards, return home, or attack. So far as defenses go, the AI defends with sats, WP, and bases - not fleets. I recall some very tough bases to crack made by the Cue Cappa and Phong. I also recall some Terran and Xichung planets that had far too many seeker WP for comfort...

Sinapus · #8 June 13th, 2001, 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LCC:
The way the AI is now makes it unpredictable. That may be the intended effect. You never know if a fleet passing through is going to warp onwards, return home, or attack. So far as defenses go, the AI defends with sats, WP, and bases - not fleets. I recall some very tough bases to crack made by the Cue Cappa and Phong. I also recall some Terran and Xichung planets that had far too many seeker WP for comfort...

Well, the AI can use improvement with weapon platforms as well. Something to make them jettison old designs and build new ones at least so you don't keep running into ones with CSM I's 100 turns into the game.

I must say I was pleasantly(?) surprised to find the Pyrochette race laying a rather large amount of mines (100+!) on a warp point bordering our systems. THAT was an improvement, and probably karmic retribution for me since I tend to use mines quite a bit.

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"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[This message has been edited by Sinapus (edited 13 June 2001).]

Master Belisarius · #9 June 13th, 2001, 08:45 PM

Yea, the AI is not bad laying mines (in fact, usually have not problems to determine the more dangerous warp points and full them with mines).
The problem with the AI is removing minefields. Some modders have included minesweepers into their attack ships as work-around, but I did not, because I like the cloaked Pyrochette ships... and the AI can't use the minesweepers with cloaked ships.