Caelum questions, both themes.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Psitticine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages?

Butterfly net?

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Heh. Which reminds me...how many Caelians fit on the head of a pin?

[ywl]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice).

Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.

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I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by ywl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.

I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

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Personal preference or different experiences? Myself I'd put the "bare minimum" at 3 for the standard nations, with 4-6 being customary. And 5 (6-9) for the extremes like Caelum or Abysia.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by ywl:
I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map. On a larger map, being domkilled is somewhat less imminent, and you'll have more time to boost your dominion with mad temple building, since you'll have eonugh space to do it.

Also, dominion in friendly provinces provides a percentage gain in income equal to current dominion level, IIRC, and the stronger your dominion is in the province, the faster the scales tilt towards your preferred settings.

However, I've read in the past, but never really seen proven either way that low dominion may actually spread FASTER unopposed than high dominion and carpet out over the land at low levels before higher dominion does. This is unconfirmed, but either way, high dominion is much more stubborn and difficult to uproot without concerted effort, and leaves you less susceptible to dominion-kill by preaching. IIRC, a sufficiently high dominion can be impervious to preaching by low-level priests.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by ywl:
I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map.

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In my experience it's nigh to impossible to dominion-kill a human player with a decent empire. You have to beat this player militarily before you can cancel his dominion, not the reverse.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

However, I've read in the past, but never really seen proven either way that low dominion may actually spread FASTER unopposed than high dominion and carpet out over the land at low levels before higher dominion does. This is unconfirmed, but either way, high dominion is much more stubborn and difficult to uproot without concerted effort, and leaves you less susceptible to dominion-kill by preaching. IIRC, a sufficiently high dominion can be impervious to preaching by low-level priests.

As for the resistance to preaching: if you believe ceremony's document, the higher your dominion, the harder it is to preach out.

For low dominion spreading faster: your maximum dominion acts as a "container", and your dominion will only start spreading out when that container is full. So, the higher your maximum dominion, the longer it will take for this new container to fill and start spreading further.

Of course, a higher max dominion means each dominion source (temples, pretender, prophet; I believe Priests have different mechanisms) has a better chance of actually raising/spreading dominion, but at least in the early game, your pretender and prophet should be your main source of dominion, so the "small container" effect should work better.

(Note this is just speculation, I haven't done any systematic testing to support my thoughts)

[Liadran]

Took some time to answer, lines been of quite a lot.

Dominion 6 is the min I take with Raptors even in a large map. As said here before dominion can be lower in large maps and different pretenders and strategies need different amounts of Dominion. It can't be said that certain dominion is always needed in Dom2. Different strategies have different needs.

About Cloud Trapezing mages and defence. It depends very much on nation, size of the map, turn number, the need for the defence and so on to tell a one tactic I would use. Cloud Trapazing mages are very effective (for both themes).

Mostly the gems go for summoning and items, but Hurricane has it's place. Also have to say that Decay for example is better than Hurricane. But they have their uses in a well prepared and dedicated economic strike.

Have to stop now. I'll post the end a bit later.

[Liadran]

No more classes to teach anymore.

I agree Zen on the point that you don't have 2 fortresses from the start and you research according to your playstyle and strategy. That's why speed is not always the most important thing. Price, later use and etc. make variables and change things around quite often. No best style out there. And yes base Caelum is initially faster in research after you have to change away from Elders for some time, which is an important point to note also.

Pretender is only for few items, harab seraphs can do the rest of the work. I know that base Caelum has an earth 3 pretender (or 2 sometimes) quite often and can do the same. The point was more in the fact that mostly you only have a few earth Users in base Caelum and can't know when you'll get them. Empowering is just too expensive. Base Caelum is more effective with Alteration 2 according to firepower (both are as good in pretender part), Raptors are better in defence (firepower counts for more initially).
But a simple spell like Armor of Achilles (alt2) gives quite much power to your troops (cuts knights like butter in the first runs).

About income. In average Raptors have propably about 5% less income than base Caelum. But you'll propably end with a little lower unit upkeep which takes some of the edge back.

Caelum's lightning approach is not any different than the approach os some other nations (though not all). The same things can be said to other nations also. It was just the point not to rely too much on one thing.


About the changes:

Seraph is still left for some water entry (water increase item needs only water 1). But you still lose most of your water access (not too much left).

Losing the 3 holy priest is bad, but death magic takes some of it back as you'll end up having (most propably) quite a lot of high morale troops. But Caelum fliers get hurt for some as they're the ones needing those boosts.

I agree with you about the dead. Not teh most versatile. Very strong if used well. Reducing enemy economy and very strong summons (and a 2 random mage as your going with conjuration most propably), which do not eat (very important for Caelum) and cost anything.

Lose Temple Guards and gain Ravens Guard. Let's face it as you say Caelum fliers are very fragile (even Iceclad). Temple Guard has the best morale, is blessable, has Iceclads armor and weapons and better stats than Iceclad. They are just damn slow and yes water is very good with them. Ravens Guard on the contrary is the best offensive unit Caelum can get. They have the best damage and 2 attacks and a move of 3 (very important when comparing to Iceclad and Storm Guard) They just lack in defence. But fliers really need more punch than defence. Giving them even more offensive punch makes them much better than Iceclads. I agree on the point that their cost is quite the same in the end (Ravens's guard is easier to get, but cost more also giving possibly the option of taking lower productivity than +3). Harab mages can help them and the effect is there. Also Harabs use more battle summons quite often (depends on base strategy). But in raiding warfare that move of 3 gives the edge, 2 is just too slow quite often in my opinion. Propably you don't use 3 elders (one or two is enough). But the strategy is determined against the opposition in hand, not overally.

[Liadran]

Does anyone know the exact effect of Seeking Arrow?

Originally posted by Liadran:
Does anyone know the exact effect of Seeking Arrow?

The Arrow hits one commander in the target province (at random, but the size of the commander could maybe play a role). It makes 5 to 15 damage + a permanent chest wound if the target survives. Perpetual Storm, anti-missile items and/or etherealness do protect the target (75% ?). The spell is anonymous.

Cheers