Is the intelligence in SE(?) ok?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I follow what you are saying and it too is a good idea. I see two problems with this though.

1) Modding: Anyone who wanted to select an intelligence trait would be doing so for not. Another player could simply select higher bonuses in the intelligence species section. Consider that you can�t guess how your opponent divided up his bonus points for characteristics, but who amongst us does not know the advantages that are provided by the traits natural merchants or lucky. Do you see what I am getting at? If you select the trait lucky your opponent can�t raise anything in the characteristics area to make you unlucky. Thus I decided to split the ideas into the two paradigms below; they really can not coexist without some major tinkering with the game mechanics.

2) The second problem I see is that it would really be redundant. If you make the intel into a characteristic and get full customization than you would not have an incentive to waste points picking a trait that provides the same or similar bonuses. Of course I need not point out that you can easily cap the amount for points that can be spent but still.

This [number 2] leads to another point. If the characteristic is customizable why have the trait which you can�t customize. I prefer the former over the latter because it will allow modders to have more [AI] control over the races they create. Also I really think that too much control, which characteristics selection could provide is a bad thing. Limiting it would be easier than having Aaron lay it in the code (un-modable) and it would help to flesh out the species identity RP wise. Not that characteristics don�t do the same thing already. Given this I will admit that there are holes in my idea. Still if you can mod in new offensive-intel projects you would not be able to mod in counter-intel projects if counter-intel is a characteristic. Man is this long.

[Cyrien]

In the mod I have been working on for oh so long I have been dividing intel into several categories based on race mental makeup. I broke it into the following categories: - players must choose one, I did something similiar with technology

Strong Individuals
Individuals
Unified Society
Unified Minds
Hive Mind
Single Mind

Then based on that you get different intel CI and intel projects with varying costs. Individuals have weaker CI as it is easier to convince one to go against the whole etc. At the same time because it is known that they will and do act in this way they are more easily able to convince other species that they are acting independent and mean no harm, also each agent can act on own initiative causing less usage of empire wide resources (intel points).

Single Mind has massive CI as everything is a single indivual. The pinky finger isn't going to betray the thumb. The Hive mind has similiar CI and both of those have very expensive non-CI projects that are limited in scope and ability as it will be harder for a race that is known to not possess indivual thought to penetrate into trusted areas of any other species, also every project requires special attention from the single mind and empire resources are more likely to be used(intel points).

The unified signify species that while they have indivual thoughts they are either joined in a greater societal goal or are somehow linked mentally with a greater cohesion. These offer a more ballanced intel package with the society link being slightly weaker CI and increased offense and the unified minds being stronger CI but weaker offense.

Seperate from those and optional picks that can compliment and offer extras to the above

Open Borders - Better offensive intel in reduced project costs but weaker CI
Default - Must pick if you don't take a different one so that normal intel is active, limitation of the SE4 mod system
Closed Borders - Stronger CI but weaker offensive intel

The system isn't perfect but it is the best I could come up with to incorporate individual alien societies/makeups/whatever into the intel system.

Ideally I would want to have each project working like PPP with it having a chance to fail and succeed regardless of CI, have CI with limited point storage to stop small one turn projects in small numbers and Intel Sabotage to stop big programs.

However SE4 doesn't allow moding of intel project success rates. PPP is 50% and everything else is 100%

[President_Elect_Shang]

Now that�s what I�m talking about. Just what I would like to see built into SE5 but as the norm that can be modded to, not that has to be created from scratch as you did. Also Aaron could very easily adjust it so that projects are 50% after CI fails. I can�t speak for him but I would say off hand that would take a load off of the design process. I would also throw that into the Species Trait Paradigm with your blessings. I truly like your idea, comment anyone?

You�re Open, Default, Closed Borders idea is just perfect the way it is now. If you read back to my first question you will see that THAT is the main problem I have had with the intel in SE(?). Such a simple problem was never addressed but your idea here would patch that up for nuts like me who don�t like the thought of spies slipping through the only WP to my home system to plague (pun intended) my Homeworld, and yet it should satisfy those that say one or two can no matter how vigilant you are. I bet Aaron could even mod it into the game with base CI and OI adjustments as a permanent fixture, much like selecting atmosphere type is.

[ December 18, 2003, 20:29: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Fyron]

Keep in mind that modders can change the values of all racial traits for which a value makes since. Look at Hardy Industrialists, Advanced Storage Techniques, the supply one, etc. The only ones you can not change values for are the ones like Natural Merchants. How do you have a better "no spaceports required?"

[President_Elect_Shang]

I understand that, and natural merchants was just an example to demonstrate my point. The advantage will be that CI will reflect the idea [you have] of your species and most of all it will free up those intel points to assign to OI projects.

[Q]

The more I think about this the more I like the idea that intel works like space combat:
Basically the success chance of a intel project (that has not been stopped by counter intel) is for instance 50%. If the aggressor has raised his "offensive intel" racial characteristic to 110% it will increase to 60%. But if the target empire has raised its "defensive intel" racial characteristics to 120% the success rate drops to 40% (50+10-20).
You still keep the racial characteristics of intel point production as it is now in SE IV.
And if you like you may add some advanced racial traits like "intel immunity", that gives complete immunity to all attacking intel operations. This would be similar to the situation we have now with happiness and the advanced trait of "emotionless". You could make either this "intel immunity" very expensive and/or combine it with the inability to do any intel operations yourself.

[ December 19, 2003, 09:17: Message edited by: Q ]

[rdouglass]

That's kinda' what I was saying as well, Q.

To me, it doesn't seem like a big leap coding-wise to move the intel model to a system like the combat model. Along with Q's description and the combat engine, you'd be able to use System, Planet, and Component modifiers.

You could build some sort of "Intel Headquarters" to increase resistence to intel in system. You could add intel components to ships to increase their CI ability agains Crew Insurrection; think something along the lines of Security Stations.

It may also be possible to deal with intel more specifically. For instance, if I wanted to attempt PPP over an enemy planet, maybe I'd need to have a cloaked sat (or another type of unit or ship component) in the system (to simulate getting behind lines). You'd have to see a ship to use Crew Insurrection on it. Those kinds of 'granular' controls may be possible then.

Probably already been discussed in other threads, but if we were able to vote on a model, that would be my vote....

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