Suggestion for a new nation

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by jaif:
Forgive me, but I have to ask - where's the balance in this new nation? Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a Persian/Arab influenced nation in the game, but what's described in this thread sounds like it has no weaknesses and several strengths.

Fire as one of the nation's primary magic paths isn't enough of a weakness for you?

I don't see it as having any particularly impressive strengths. Nothing with heavy armor, no crossbows or longbows, primary magic path is weak, average at best priests. Cavalry are always expensive and only sometimes worth it. The seducing unit might be good, but probably not as good as a well equipped assassin - a more limited choice of targets and probably a lower success rate. (Although it would be interesting if, when a courtesan fails to seduce someone and has to fight them instead, the target doesn't get any of his armor during the fight... )

It might be fun to play, but I wouldn't expect it to be a serious contender against the likes of Arcoscephale, Pythium, Caelum or Jotunheim.

[Sandman]

Jaif has a point about balance.

Flying mages, excellent assassins, effective cavalry, powerful summons, stealthy troops, sacred dervishes. All pretty good.

One obvious place to make up the balance points would be with weak priests. Spread the faith through conquest, rather than preaching. Seems in keeping with the theme.

It would be hard to say if it's balanced or not without the particulars. Maybe each Djinn costs 30 Air and are barely reasonable for that cast. Maybe the Fire and Air of the mages is minute. Maybe the cavalry are expensive and don't fight well.

I'd wait to pass judgement on balance until you can see what is there, then you can go from there.

[Psitticine]

It sounds very interesting to me, especially in light of the myth-laden flavor inherent in the idea. It should fit in marvelously with the already existing nations (which isn't a necessity, but it always nice) and have something unique to offer.

[tinkthank]

Well when I originally posted the suggestion, I pictured the "Djinn Warrior" as a fighter/mage hybrid, and not *NEARLY* as powerful as, for example, Al Khazim. That would be overpowered.
Otherwise, I dont see this as being overpowered, at least without TOO much national summons.
Weaknesses would include:
- low armor
- no non-random earth, death, blood, nature, water.
- no heavy-hitting units (scimtar wielders and dervishes are the closest that come to it)

Should things still be too powerful, one could always nerf this or that or crank up the prices of some units.

Wouldnt go camel archers, and certainly not with two archers per camel -- sounds like moose riders to me, which I really neither understand nor like either. (A size 4 moose? Please. And two riders? Good luck hitting the side of a barn.)

In general, as someone pointed out, it sounds a lot like Pangaia (which is generally not considered overpowered) or a cross between them and Van and Machaka.

I still like the mish-mash idea, where the capital city (I picture a cross between Alexandria and Constantinople) is one in which scholars and sages gather and civilization has its peak, although the dark temples still harbor the mystic exstatic cults of the dervishes,
and the twilight culture of the sand dwellers is found on the outskirts.

[jaif]

I probably could have phrased my question better, but my personal philosophy when designing things like this (nations in strategy games) is to a) think of the general theme), b) detail their cool stuff, and c) detail their weaknesses. With those three elements of the design fully stated, it makes it easier to flesh out the details.

I just wanted to incorporate weaknesses into the discussion, and I've seen a number of good replies.

-Jeff

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by jaif:
c) detail their weaknesses.

Well, I can only speak on behalf of my own "1001 Nights" mod, but it has weaknesses, and is much less powerful than the base Arco it's built on.

The main weakness is the lack of reliable infantry. The main line infantry is basically Cardaces, the best infantry type is the Janissary bowman who is very close to the base T'ien Ch'i Imperial Archer, with less protection (8), a strat move of 2 and a 2-handed scimitar (a toned-down greatsword). All that for 16 gold apiece. There's a 3rd infantry type, the 'Harem guards', who are giant eunuchs (giant here only means they have 13 hp instead of the regular 10 - think of Hollywood peplums), armed with the same great scimitars but even worse protection than the Janissaries. That's all for infantry as there are no dervishes in my mod.

Colorful, but not really earth-shattering infantry IMO. Its only saving grace is it's resource-cheap.

[Alexander Seil]

Originally posted by tinkthank:


As to the Courtesan: d'accord. (And of course I never pictured her being able to seduce undead, Minoutaurs, or whatnot; size 2 humans only. She would and should and must be inferior to the succubus in every way.)

Can succubi seduce undead or minotaurs????? To my knowledge they can't even seduce eunuchs...

[PvK]

KO wrote:
"Size 4 beings can not be seduced. Neither can lifeless beings, undeads, females, eunuchs, animals nor Heart Companions."

Note that it doesn't succeed very often. Resisted by both Magic Resistance and Morale, IIRC. The succubus then fights and usually has little problem. A non-demonic seductress would probably not make a good assassin, so that would be a major difference in their effectiveness compared to a succubus.

The teleportation home is a stretch though - perhaps a reason then to make them somehow require gems, or be expensive, to account for the magic required to get them home.

PvK

[tinkthank]

Yes, Courtesans should be vastly inferior to succubi as combatants but decent seductresses to male humans. And they bring the commanders "home" not by flying (dont forget: the Succubus seduces non-flying creatures as well, and no commander in the game grants other commanders flying abilities; and a succubus can bring commanders back from over 50 provinces away, and noone flies that fast) but rather under that commander's own power. The fact that they could move 15 squares per turn or whatever just needs to be fictionalized away.

Side note: The term "Vizier" I used because the translation of 1001 Nights I have translates the title of Scheherezad's father as "Wesir", which is pretty much a 1-to-1 rendering of the word in German. Dont know what it was in the original.