retro-multi-model construction??? - Page 2

spoon · #11 February 27th, 2003, 08:19 PM

I find it strange that this isn't considered a bug/exploit/cheat. Being able to build a Warp Opener in two turns seems, well, unbalancing...

In simultaneous turns it takes longer (~8 turns), but still, I think the (probably intended) long construction time of those vehicles is part of the balancing.

-Spoon

jimbob · #12 February 28th, 2003, 02:24 AM

I tried this too, and found to my dismay that the cost of the warp openning component was so large that it exceeded the maximum retrofit limit of 50% for any conceivable ship I could build.

see: Retrofit Max Percent Difference in cost := 50

And so, for very very expensive components, you will find it exeedingly expensive to retroseries them into a ship.
If you really want the component in the fewest turns possible however this is what you must do:

i) build a ship that is really really expensive through several retroseries
ii) once the cost of your ship is equal to double of the cost of the component you want, go ahead and replace most of these expensive components with the desired component.

You will still find this takes a fair bit of micromanagement, and will significantly increase the time it takes to play a round of the game (for most of us this is a good thing

). Is it imbalanced, well no, becuase it'll still take you a longer time than two to three turns, and it will cost your empire a huge amount of resources to do.

Fyron · #13 February 28th, 2003, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
I find it strange that this isn't considered a bug/exploit/cheat. Being able to build a Warp Opener in two turns seems, well, unbalancing...

In simultaneous turns it takes longer (~8 turns), but still, I think the (probably intended) long construction time of those vehicles is part of the balancing.

-Spoon

It is most certainly not a bug, as MM has already addressed retrofits by adding the cost difference limit in the first patch or so (or was that in the initial release, added in a later beta patch? I forget). It is not a cheat, as it is well within the game parameters to do it. Most do not consider it an exploit because of the huge costs involved in doing it. It costs a lot more to build a ship with retrofits than it does to build it normally.

The high maintenance and high build cost prevent you from getting very many stellar manipulation ships in service, regardless of how you build them. Using extensive retrofits does shave off many turns of build time, but it does magnify the overall cost to build by several factors (depending on how many retrofits you use).

[ February 28, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

spoon · #14 February 28th, 2003, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

The high maintenance and high build cost prevent you from getting very many stellar manipulation ships in service, regardless of how you build them. Using extensive retrofits does shave off many turns of build time, but it does magnify the overall cost to build by several factors (depending on how many retrofits you use).

You only need one warp-opener to cause considerable harm. The cost of retrofitting a single ship isn't that great. By retrofiting, you lose the long-build time balancing factor.

Again, look how retrofitting works in non-simultaneous turns. You can build a bare bones ship in one turn, and then, in the next turn, retrofit it all the way up to a star destroyer. This isn't buggy behavior???

Fyron · #15 February 28th, 2003, 03:30 AM

It is difficult to get such a retrofit series enabled. Even if you do, it costs a huge amount of extra resources to do so.

No, it is not at all buggy in any way. Gamey, sure. But for it to be a bug, it would have to function contrary to how it is intended to function. MM already addressed retroseries in a long ago patch, so this can not be considered buggy. Turn-based games are almost always just against AIs, so doing that only possibly hurts yourself, not any other players. It is not nearly as dramatic in MP games.

spoon · #16 February 28th, 2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

No, it is not at all buggy in any way. Gamey, sure. But for it to be a bug, it would have to function contrary to how it is intended to function.

I disagree. I don't think it was intended to be able to build a Star Destroyer in two turns. And if it was intended, then I call that a design flaw, which is just as bad as a bug.

jimbob · #17 February 28th, 2003, 09:51 PM

Hmmm, usually my end product ship (you're calling yours a stardestroyer) is many many times more expensive than my input ship (you're calling this the barebones ship).

Because my end product ship usually exceeds the input ship by 5 to 10 fold in cost, it would not be possible for me to upgrade from the "barebones" ship to the "stardestroyer" in only 1 to 2 turns (because of the 50% rule). I'd suggest that you should actually exploit this "feature" more, rather than less by increasing the cost differential between your input ships and output ships! Of course the cost to your empire will be that you will definitely need to increase 1) your resource production 2) the amount of resource storage and 3) the number of repair components on either ships or bases to allow the retroseries to work well.

If you really feel that retroseries is imbalanced, then you could cease using it or mod. the required files to make it even more expensive

. I personally find that I need to build up a substantial infrastructure in order to retroseries well, and that this balances everything out (ie. now I've got to spend time building repair ships, more storage facilities, etc.)

just my thoughts,
jimbob

spoon · #18 February 28th, 2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbob:
Hmmm, usually my end product ship (you're calling yours a stardestroyer) is many many times more expensive than my input ship (you're calling this the barebones ship).

It costs about 200k minerals to build a warp-opener (not a star-destroyer, I know...) in two turns using retro-series. Certainly not out of reach for most games I've played.

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbob:

If you really feel that retroseries is imbalanced, then you could cease using it or mod. the required files to make it even more expensive

Doesn't help in games already started... and if my opponent might be using it...

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbob:

I personally find that I need to build up a substantial infrastructure in order to retroseries well, and that this balances everything out (ie. now I've got to spend time building repair ships, more storage facilities, etc.)

You are probably going to want to do these things regardless, and my main concern is with building a few Stellar Manip ships of various flavors. For that purpose, worst case is you would have to build an extra repair base and storage facility...

-Spoon

Grandpa Kim · #19 March 1st, 2003, 03:48 AM

From spoon:

Quote:

It costs about 200k minerals to build a warp-opener (not a star-destroyer, I know...) in two turns using retro-series. Certainly not out of reach for most games I've played.

Okay, spoon, I'll bite. How can you do that in two turns!? Details please.

Fyron · #20 March 1st, 2003, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:
Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

No, it is not at all buggy in any way. Gamey, sure. But for it to be a bug, it would have to function contrary to how it is intended to function.

I disagree. I don't think it was intended to be able to build a Star Destroyer in two turns. And if it was intended, then I call that a design flaw, which is just as bad as a bug.

Be as dissatisfied as you want. I am stating the facts.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
From spoon:

quote:
It costs about 200k minerals to build a warp-opener (not a star-destroyer, I know...) in two turns using retro-series. Certainly not out of reach for most games I've played.

Okay, spoon, I'll bite. How can you do that in two turns!? Details please.

Read the whole thread.

[ March 01, 2003, 01:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]