Helicopter Evasion
 

Helicopters under fire during the human controlled turn (in game vs AI) may be temporarily computer controlled to evade fire, usually by flying back towards the human controlled side of the map.

A helicopter at high altitude will stay at this altitude when evading. The first thing I do when I regain control of movement is to descend to low altitude as this will often break LOS.

Would it be possible to code the 'automatic' evasion routine to immediately drop from high to low altitude before moving? This would presumably mirror the normal behaviour of pilots when under fire, equivalent to the infantry response of diving for cover.

Helicopters at low altitude would stay there rather than drop to land so this refinement only applies when at high altitude.

Fair enough if it can't be done, and apologies if it has previously been considered and rejected, but heh, don't ask, don't get.

cheers,

Tim

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Interesting. I never ever fly helicopters (eggbeaters) at high altitude.

Only reason to that I can think of going to high altitude is too have a look at what's about. But fixed wing aircraft is better suited to that.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

I always run the Apaches as high as they can go, and as far out as I can get them. It's their job to overwatch for my forces below them and pick off any immediate threats. Occasionally one will encounter an enemy unit with enough firepower to get a shot at one. At that point I lower the altitude to low and work my way towards the threat and eliminate it.

ChristopherT

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Sounds good in theory ,but a robust air defense will bring those high flying apaches down fast. Then they won't be overwatching anything.

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If your not careful a decent MBT can blast them. I find that T-80's are great at that, as the ATGM is very likely to kill the helicopter.

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I once got a platoon of helicopters destroyed by tanks, i was trying to drop some engineers to bust bunkers (no 16inch avaiable)...

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Don't leave them hanging about & the tanks won't get em.
I would say you need to be confident whats about to end turn with them high but poping up to take a shot can be much more accurate than moving.

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I like the idea of recoding to drop altitude. With the current code, evasion at high alt. just draws more shots, more evasion, more shots until eventually the copter is destroyed, damaged or enemy runs out of ammo. The copter should drop to low altitude, to stop this senseless maneuver. Note the move takes place after the missile detonates, so why keep it up high?

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Yeah, its actually pretty frustrating when your helicopters rech the dz flying high to avoid RPGs and small arms fire and someone fires a 7.62 at you knowing that it wont do any damage, but will make it evade(for no reason) and create more op fires... actually this evasion thing isn't always good as it uses your mp to do something you dont want

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

I too would love it if helo's at high altitude would first drop to low before they evade.
As for the folks already at low altitude ... well if you're under fire you either A) Screwed up B) Are doing your job :)

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

It does occur to me it depends why you have them high. If because flying round troops going low is not good. If you have him high its for a reason & while going low will help sometimes others its not what I would have wanted so its swings & roundabouts.
The simple solution is not to be so reckless with them, dont fly high if there are several threats in the area. You dont stick a tank out to see if someone is going to shoot at so why risk a more vulnerable helo.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

We'll look into it

Don

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Apaches aren't that vulnerable! They are lot better than the Heuys formerly used by the Army. I don't consider it reckless to scout ahead of the armour with a helicopter that's designed to be an "offensive scout".

That's just my style! An Apache is not going to trip a mine while advancing, and it might force an eneny unit to take an opfire and expose itself.

ChristopherT

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Thats cool.:cool: I didn't mean the Apaches would get destroyed alot, only that they would want to stay down rather than face a wave of heavy SAM's,localized AA guns and Inf SAM's.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

The Apaches were created to be tank destroyers. A counter measure against the numerical superiority of Soviet tanks, nothing more.
Even with the Longbow upgrade, they are to kill tanks, not scout.
There are lighter, more agile, less noticeable helis for that, for example the OH-58 Kiowa class.

Unless you play as Greece or something who has scout helicopters with a vision of 10..., there is no reason to use the Apache as a scout.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

You don't!???:eek:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

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Actually I do that all the time. Something like a Leo2 that can withstand punishment.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Me too :doh:
Can`t help it :bow:

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Still, moving such expensive things into the enemy without proper scouting will only give the enemy some more points

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Okay I will rephrase that you would not if you thought there was a good chance something is out there that could kill it Like a Sam or Radar AAA vs a helo you would do your best to avoid it.
If not good job its an electronic army would not like to serve under you

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

It a pleasure reading the comments, please consider my further thoughts below.

I would say this is really just how the game is coded to handle the situation. Helos are designed to fly at any altitude within the limits of their design. You don't know exactly whether or not an opponent has what kind of AD or where the AD is located. It would be nice to have sensors that detect radar emissions, but maybe that is for a later version. So for now, at some point you have to evaluate the risks vs what you seek to gain. High altitude provides good FOV, so there is value in the information that can be gained. So some may accept that risk under certain conditions. The concept of operation I would like to propose (never flown a helo)
a) Copter goes up to look
b) multiple missiles launched
c) helo takes evasive action
c1) evasive action at high altitude, doesn't make much sense since helo can not out fly missile.
c2) launch chaff and continue to fly at high alt., doesn't make much sense since other SAMs will detect continue motion and fire more SAMS
c3) evade to break missile lock by dropping altitude to ground clutter (I am guess that this is a tactic)
c4) evade to break missile lock by firing chaff and dropping altitude to ground.
d) resolve missile attack (concurrent with c)
d1) at least one missile hit - end of story
d2) all missile miss, helo evades
e) chagne state of helo to evade state.

Since the helo does not move far compared to the flight of the missile, might as well resolve all missile fires in the location of the helo spotted, then if the helo survives, it goes to lower atltitude just as ground units will take cover. The helo shouldn't fly around triggering more missile fires, because it has already got the answer it was seeking by going high in the first place. (can I go high to look around without being shot down).

My view of the world, but by no means the only view :)

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

So, am I the only one that doesn't see a problem with how it is handled now?

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

No to me its fine dropping would be nice sometimes but not others. I think the problem lies more in how people are using them, they are fast so they lead the strike.
Er because they are fast they are a good reaction force handy for boosting a force to get area dominance or finding that Para drop etc. Yes they can & should do some scouting but not at 100+ miles an hour as the only thing they will find is AAA so they deserve to die.
It should not be up there in the first place unless you think the risk is justified if it draws loads of fire as retreats YOU made a bad judgement call so in the big picture of things on needs fixing list would give a low priority.
It just encourages poping up to see if SAMs are about & I have a feeling your average helo pilot would not be to happy doing that.
People already bleed SAMs or find like this for arty etc & this will just lead to more of it as its easy.

Also certainly against early MANPADS that need a good heat signature turning & running is the wrong thing to do it should head towards the firer.
So now those MANPADS should only be able to fire if have a rear shot so game has to check its moving away from the firer (presenting exhaust) before gets a lock. In other words range increases
I think we are skirting the edge of whats possible with the game.
Also & just my view high alt represents up for a look, low nape of the Earth it does not just drop like a stone between the 2 & if had any forward momentum would still change hexes while doing so. The whole air movement thing is wrong because the game cannot give bigger turning arcs to faster moving stuff etc etc so it will still be wrong.

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Does anybody else think that while having the helo dive may be more realistic in the big picture of things it will lead to more gamey tactics for finding bleeding AAA?

I am no expert but guess they would try to find or better avoid at low level only going to high if judged a safe bet.
To find at low level move behind cover (tree building hill) rise so just over & any fire can drop behind cover, now go round over it.
In game terms we do not have that level but represents pretty well as any AAA team worth its salt would probably hold fire if it saw this manouvre & wait for the helo to move to a position where it can't "duck". So they will not fire till helo is over or round the obstacle.

If your pilot wants to find AAA by going high the way it stands he has to pick his spot to do it at least. If change it can do it anywhere with comparative safety.
This to me seems totaly unrealistic & risk vs reward is one of the great decision factors in this game.
To me you dont try to find ATGs ATGMs with tanks & same applies to AAA you find it with grunts SEAD if possible. Till then flying high is a risk if you want your helos to live.
If you are not impatient & allow ammo reloads for them they are a great asset getting many kills if used in support of your ground force.

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Lowering the risks for going in high altitude would be bad in gaming terms in my opinion. This from someone that uses helos a lot.

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OTOH on real battlefield there would be much less radar-directed AA (heavy SAMs, radar AA-guns etc.) than it is possible in SP.

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Than it is possible yes but often play pretty realisticly.
Possibly if high vis & think likely might have a couple of area SAMs but recent game playing as 2/3rds early 80s Soviet Tank Regiment had 4 ZSU-23s with radar & 2 basic SAMs Gopher as I think this is about right. Did have some manpads in infantry company but this was protecting 60 tanks & all the supporting infanty arty APCs etc.
Yes his air did find holes but thats how it goes, manpads did quite a good job in this particular game & lack of TI was a much more serious problem.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Hi:
Like the many good points.
It probably would lead to abuse, but on the other hand-

The SAMs would be bled and spotted perhaps, just as easily the way it is now. Consider, the copter goes high and is shot at 4-5 times, all near misses (but likely inflicting some cummulative damage). For example, Site A fires, computer moves helo, Site B fires, computer moves helo, Site A fires again computer moves helo, Site C fires computer moves helo, etc. Some of the shots are from different SAM sites, others from the same SAM site. The multiple shots from the same SAM site will reveal their location. It also reveals the number of SAMs sites in the area.

The defender would probably like to have an opportunity to tune the range on his AD so that all don't go off, revealing their number and location. What could be even worst, is that they are all shooting at a target that could be out of the game with just one damage point.

Note also, that not even planes do what the helos do when fired upon by SAMs.

The other consideration, is the helos are not treated like ground targets. The ground targets get shot at from everyone who can see them at the location they are at. Whereas for helos, they get shot at from their original location and again when they are moved by the computer, when you loose control of them, to a new location.

Perhaps in this last comment lies the solution.

Maybe just remove the routine that moves the helicopter when it is shot at. Since in the big scheme of things and to be consistent with other units, all firing takes place at the same time for any move. So if I move my helo to location A (high or low), it may get shot at by multiple SAMs, but it doesn't move on its own (computer AI) to some other location, and drawing additional fire. This way, I can decide (assuming the helo survived) - change altitude, withdraw or continue. I think this could be the happy medium for all. Of course this means I can no longer get those helo kills by forcing the helo to move into range of my other AD, but I certainly like this idea better. In fact, I think under some cases, this is how it works too, just don't know what makes the computer decide to take over sometimes and not other times.

Cheers

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

How much do you pay to your pilots so that you expect them to be stationary while being shot at? ;)

IF the routine was to change, I would suggest a different one - that a helo, if it has enough experience and EW to notice missile being fired at, might take a "smaller" evasive move (say 3-4 hexes), if it breaks LOS to the missile unit it evades completely, if not, normal hit determination routine and "large" evasion ensues.
As for evasion patterns re. dropping from high alt to low (if being fired at by AAA/SAMs), I would guess the best would be a random approach - say based on experience and movement points remaining, the heli might go to low level.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

He does using Y key or op filter. AAA is the one thing change ranges on regulary. Leave at max if somethings under threat, turn it down so he comes in & then crank up a bit when to hit chance is better. If playing a human who flits about at extreme range high up to draw I will turn it down or off.
This does mean your suggestion to not evade is a bad thing as now when he pops up he is targeted by most of my AAA so would take some serious fire. At least evading increases his range generaly decreasing my chance to hit.

If it was my turn & he does not evade if I have 4 AAA units targeting what do you think his survival chances would be. Say 2 guns & 2 SAMs so 8 & 4 shots possibly.
Also I now just run a vehicle upto it & it does not run great I will blast away now its dead.
Just leave it alone I say.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Hi again:
I think we are all talking the same thing.

The evasion still takes place, but in the same hex. This already is done. When fired upon, sometimes you get a message that unit is taking evasive action before the missle hits. Then it gives a percent chance of hit that usually much lower than what it was originally. I've seen Helos do it and I've seen tanks do it (in the wild --- sorry couldn't help it).

I don't read this as a pilot staying stationary, but in the scope of the timeslice all shots are resolved and moving the helo, if it survives, is retained by the player to either continue advancing, change altitude, retreat, etc.

There are actually a couple of units that exhibit the current behavior now that I think of it. Infantry retreats too. So maybe this is a retreat routine for the helo. The difference I think is that in most cases when infantry retreats, it doesn't trigger additional units to fire (I think). When the helo retreats, it can.

So for any particular move, if a helo is detected by 3 SAMs for instance, all 3 get to fire at the helo at the spot it was detected. One could assume that they aren't talking to each other of course and each fire independently or maybe they all communicate and all fire to improve their chance of hit. The missiles move at the speed of sound or greater maybe Mach 2 or 3. You can do the math and come up with time vs distance to see how far a helo might move in the time that it takes a missile to reach its location. My guess is that it is not long. So, that would be the reason for resolving all fire where the helo is. I believe this is the same rationale for all firing in the game. So there is no change as far as this goes. The only change is not letting the computer AI move your helo after it has been shot. Note operative word "after".

Actually this could have some other benefits too! If the helo is damage, instead of retreating, it becomes immobilized on the next turn and is stuck in the landed position, which gives the owning player time to move it to a safe location in the current turn. This also means that you can come across down aircraft in tack. For a campaign, this would mean captured equipment :)

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Vehicles do the same & read my WW2 AAR Them Germans were good. If possible I always position my units to cover retreat routes. In the closing stages of the game 5 out of 6 retreating squads were completly wiped out simply by fire at them routing because they had no place to go.
This is not a gamey tactic it is encirclement & while in real life they may well surrender & do if I am adjacent to them in the game they try & make a break for it first.

Yes its a retreat for a helo & you are asking the game to track the firer type & then act on that.
Example vehicle or infantry adjacent to fires at.
Helicopter now moves down so has used a MP
They fire again its now still adjacent but closer as its at low level so the to hit has gone up a lot
If you are playing something like air cav in Vietnam if it somehow survived it would now proceed across the jungle taking low level fire from other squads.
I realy wish it had stayed up it was up for a reason, small arms fire is less effective.

The game does not resolve all fire at a unit & then move it.
It resolves fire at it till it bugs out even from the same unit.
Squad with 3 infantry weapons fires at enemy squad
If enemy squaud routes after 2nd weapon fires & moves the third weapon does not fire. Any other unit that could have fired at it where it was does not get the chance to either.

So what you propose means even if 100AA units can target it when it pops up only one can ever fire. Takes longer to bleed the fire but you can do it in a nice controled manor by making it pop up again. So the fire would have to at the minimum suppress the helo so heavily you cannot move it again that go to stop this.
Now it could become a sitting duck to a firer that still has LOS to it & its chance of evading is gone.

If we assume the game can indeed shoot several units at it before it moves again why cant units shooting at troops & vehicles do this to. So every unit that could have fired at the previosly mentioned squad does then it moves.

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Good day all

Attack Helo's least wise the good ones you'd need the largest maps in order to hang at high altiude, unless your enemy is lacking in the SA Dept. Against even an enemy with a good amount of AAA, deploying those SHINY targets takes some hopping around at low level.

That auto altiude dump would be a nice feature, but me thinks we are dreaming!

Bob out:D

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Already done


Don

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Oh pinch me then!!!!:cheers:

Thanks Guys!!:up::up:

Bob out:D

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Hi:
What does "SHINY" mean or stand for?
Thanks

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

SHINY, as in SHINY Kit, mean expensive and most desired, the good stuff if you will. Examples being: Apaches and MBT's with hi-tech kit etc.

Bob out:D

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And therefore it also means "bullet magnet" :evil:

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

Thanks, that makes sense.

Please bare with me as I grasp the lingo.

auto altitude dump = go from high to low as oppose to dropping guys from helos without landing?

Re: Helicopter Evasion
 

So then throwing men from the aircraft in flight? that would be Evil :evil: