The Problem with Undead

[TheSelfishGene]

This is not a post telling "how it is", but just some brainstorming thoughts and observations.

Undead are pound for pound better than other troops. They never break, they never fatigue out (or lose effectiveness from fatigue), they are typically stronger and more durable than regular units (or in the case of Longdead, more numerous). Death gems are easier to find than other kinds (Nature gems are some of the rarest, it seems).

What it comes down too are a couple basic points;
-Undead get *bonus* HP and armor just for being undead, compared to similar troops.
-Strengths are supposed to be balanced by undead weaknesses.

And here is the problem; the main Undead Weakness, banishment, only seems to work on weak longdead. Has anyone ever banished a Bane, Bane Lord, Skeletal Archer, ect? Or banished a Prince of Death or Vampire Queen? Magically animated corpses should be more vulnerable to magic imo. Of course there are Undead killing spells, but many of these require Death magic? There is Holy Pyre, but Dust to Dust ect are all in the death paths.

Also think about the effects of adding the "never heals" flag to most Undead units. This to balance their higher durability/armor and morale. I think on paper it would be an improvement, but i'm sure there are other opinions.

Thoughts?

[quantum_mechani]

A 'Smite Greater Undead' spell would probably help. Overall though, I don't see at as a large problem (just that thematically, I would like to see larger undead get banished sometimes).

[Ironhawk]

I've never really had a problem with the undead which are regularly used as troops: longdead, dispossesed spirits, longdead horsemen, banefire archers. They are all good troops but are quite fragile if you manage to hit them. And all of those are banishable, IMO. Can't say the same for banes and higher, but then again those are high value commanders and it might unbalance them to give them a serious weakness beyond the normal Flambeau/Herald Lance type of attacks.

Don't agree that death gems are any more common than any other gem. In my experience, all gems are equally likely, you just normally find more of whatever path your nation is good in.

I do agree that it is odd that all the really serious undead-killer spells are *only* in the Death path. It seems to me that there should be more spells like Holy Pyre out there. And maybe some more Holy or Astral spells which specfically target undead. Like a Holy Greater Banishing that was bigger and did more damage. And a high level Astral or Holy spell that was like a slightly beefed up single-target banishment, like Smite Demon?

[Chazar]

TheSelfishGene said:Has anyone ever banished a Bane, Bane Lord, Skeletal Archer, ect?

Um, what exactly do you mean? Banishment deals normal damage and is not an instant kill, right?

[Taqwus]

Undead have their own problems; the hordes being mindless is a curse in addition to a blessing. Watch as two dozen Illithids simultaneously mindblast your leaders because those are the only legitimate targets, for instance... and then the hordes dissolving rather than retreating. Dissolving's also a problem after an Earth Attack/Mind Hunt/assassin binge, and the unbreakable morale is a problem in situations where you *should* run to, er, remain undead another day. Mindless troops also never gain experience, and are poor at defending castles.

As for hp, well, for Longdead -- have you looked at Longdead Horse? IIRC, they've got a whopping 5 hp, possibly already combined with a never-heals flag.

Most everything above Longdead needs to be explicitly summoned, and tends to be tricky to do in quantity (Archers being an exception, as you get 10, but that's at Ench 7, IIRC; mass-Wights takes Conj 9). Ghosts can be, with a high-Death leader. But if they run into a Blade Wind, they and their relatives (e.g. dispossessed spirits) face Blade Wind with 0 prot and no protection from etherealness, since it's a spell.

And death magic *is* essentially a summoning path, with relatively focused constructions (primarily deathly effects like drain life and fear, and boosting death), few non-summoning rituals, and generally less-than-spectacular battle magic (shining against undead, 'tho, and decent in combination with astral). Blood is the other obvious mega-summoning path. If the summons for these paths weren't good, they'd be a pretty heavy disadvantage to something like Astral (recon, luck, ethereal, movement, multi-path boosters, enslavement, mind hunting, direct damage, dome, magic resistance...) or Nature (supply, regeneration, Vine Ogres, dome, Firbolgs, supply, light armor, supply, wolves, Gift of Health, supply, Lamia queen sorcerors, Charm, supply...), or Air (solo movement, lightning, storms, yet more lightning, can't forget Wrathful Skies, lightning weapons, lightning armor, seeking arrows, anti-missile spells, anti-missile items, mistform, Fog Warriors, others...).

[Huzurdaddi]

Taqwus said:
If the summons for these paths weren't good, they'd be a pretty heavy disadvantage to something like ... Air (solo movement, lightning, storms, yet more lightning, can't forget Wrathful Skies, lightning weapons, lightning armor, seeking arrows, anti-missile spells, anti-missile items, mistform, Fog Warriors, others...).

Hey isn't everything at a disadvantage to Air? As someone posted when I 1st started the game ( and really did not know it too well ) "Air has all of the toys" and it's true.

As for undead being overpowered. I don't really think so. Banishment works wonders on the massed undead and there are a couple of spells ( and items ) specifically tailored to killing the high cost undead units that work spectacularly well. That being said the undead can really rock your world if you are not read for them.

[TheSelfishGene]

Maggots!?

I had forgetten about that spell, never having used it. How well does that spell work against the more powerful undead, and does it auto-target powerful Undead or just the random junk? Supposedly its fatal if it sticks.

[sushiboat]

Undead are cool, but I don't see them as unbalanced. The lesser undead get destroyed by the hundreds. The powerful undead should be compared to other powerful summons (e.g., Wraith Lord vs. Air Queen). Undead Pretenders should be compared to other Pretenders that have similar roles (e.g., undead SC vs. living SC).

By the way, why should Banish be effective against powerful undead? It is a low level spell that requires no research (i.e., is available from Turn 1), gives no fatigue, and has multiple effects per casting. That is a pretty good deal as it is. And of course, Banish can hurt powerful undead; you just need to cast it more often before it will deal a killing blow.

[Taqwus]

Maggots is deadly. IIRC it's capped at how much damage it can do, 'tho; ISTR having a PoD barely survive it once, and I don't think he had regen items on him.

Spell targeting is probably similar to other spells, other than that it'll only target undead (and perhaps only corporeals; ethereal IIRC means that the spell will only rarely work) -- which can be interesting if you're using a Prince of Death with a living army attacking an army with druids. Been there, done that, smacked forehead.