Ashdod is worthless now

[earcaraxe]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Ashdod has been hit pretty hard by nerfs, and not necessarily always in ways I would have preferred. But they haven't been nerfed into worthlessness. You just have to evolve your tactics around the new changes. You can still make them fatigue neutral with just a girdle of might, and that wasn't a bad idea before anyway. So you just need a bit of construction research and the willingness to spend some gems. Honestly the fact that niefelheim still has just 4 encumbrance is ridiculous though, jarls were much sillier IMO. Anyway, you're not going to be able to use ashdod the same way anymore, but think of that as a challenge to improve your playing ability. From what I've heard you have certain habits for playing the same way every time, with a brute force approach. But there is a lot of subtlety in the game to learn, and if you try to stretch out a bit more, you may find a way to work around the issues you have with Ashdod's sacreds. With the support from the zamzummites and some of their other things, plus gearing your sacreds to at least some modest degree, you should get a much better performance out of them.

i would like to back up rdonj's opinion about niefel jarls being even stronger. i would like to see cbm nerfing them in some way.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

But doesn't having enc-5 Ahiman Anakites pigeonhole Ashdod into having an E10N4/6 bless far more than enc-7 giants does?

Not in my opinion. Encumbrance 5 is hard, but other troops have it. On the other hand, encumbrance 7 is absolutelly undoable. If you have encumbrance 7, you need reinvigoration no matter of what. Maybe not E10, but at the very least E6-

triqui, I presume part of your fervor about this is because you are currently playing Ashdod and are in a war with MA Ermor?

Not really, I already lost that war. And encumbrance 7 was not involved in the defeat, as I passed on the Annakites and built the berserkers ones instead. My defeat was a combination of a worthy foe, 2 stalls due to llamaserver problems (that affected me but not my foe), and Apostacy spell.

However, I recognize that I got surprised when I saw encumbrance 7 on the giants (never played them with 1,92 before that). I don't think Ashdod is gimped, though, I was leading the game until I got crushed by comunion+Apostacy. As I said in my very first post, Ashdod is not a bad nation, and is not the weakest nation in the roster, that for sure. But the 150g88r sacreds are, in my opinion, left dead with the change. They are atrociously expensive for what they can do, in my opinion.

And why did it fall out of favor? Because the people taking thug-based blesses were winning perhaps?

Sure. But is that related to sacred units? Or to the fact that thugs and SC are the best options available for most nations? E9NX increase thugs effectiveness by a big margin. W9F9... does not. Plus the nerf to some of the sacred units (namely, Vans) also had something to do with it.

Niefl Giants do not work with any blesses beside E9+N4+. Unsurprisingly, they are also size 5 giants with good defenses and few attacks. Would you like to complain about that too? The alternative to E9+N4+ is to *not use* Niefl Giants and use Jotun Skinshifters instead.

Niefel Giants have several difference to Annakites. First, they are cheaper (as in much cheaper). Second, they don't have encumbrance 7. Third, they have a frost aura that can help them to kill masses of troops (Except cold inmunes). So no, they are not in the same case than Annakites trying to kill chaff with 75 gold per attack ratio. Plus, in my opinion, Niefleheim would need a nerf more than Annakites did, but that's matter for another discussion.

And on Sauromatia in particular - there may have been guides which suggested other things, but in practice E9N4 was so ubiquitous that the Gorgon pretender was nerfed specifically because of Sauromatia

The fact it fly, has a decent fighting chasis, and, maybe, it petrifies everything that attacks them also had something to do with it. Actually, in my opinion, it was the other way around. It's not that Oiorpatas benefit from E9N4 more than they'll do from, say, W9B4 or whatever. The thing is they ended having that bless, becouse Gorgon was so awesome that nobody else used other chasis. And once you are pigeonholed to a Chasis that has Earth and Nature, it makes a lot of sense to have a E/N bless. There were cheap ways to get E9/N4 with other pretenders. People used the Gorgon becouse of the chasis.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Niefel Giants have several difference to Annakites. First, they are cheaper (as in much cheaper). Second, they don't have encumbrance 7. Third, they have a frost aura that can help them to kill masses of troops (Except cold inmunes). So no, they are not in the same case than Annakites trying to kill chaff with 75 gold per attack ratio. Plus, in my opinion, Niefleheim would need a nerf more than Annakites did, but that's matter for another discussion.

Yes, they do have some differences. Lets start with they're in EA instead of MA, and so the expected opposition is stronger in the early game. Lets also note that they have weaker gear overall, and that they are vulnerable in hot provinces.

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.

And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one?

I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.

You know what other question you haven't answered? What other blesses worked previously with Anakim that no longer work. This may also be because no one has ever advocated a bless other than E9+ N4+ for anakim. Ever. If you'd like to provide *evidence* to the contrary, please link such posts. If you'd like to upload turn files from a game where Ashdod used Anakim with a bless other than E9+ N4+ and did well, that would also work. My guess is that you have no such evidence.

Or we can agree that everyone sane used a big E bless with a smaller N bless, and that to pretend they will ever be played otherwise is pure sophistry. Then the question becomes 'are they still worth using with that bless?', and all other considerations are irrelevant.

The fact it fly, has a decent fighting chasis, and, maybe, it petrifies everything that attacks them also had something to do with it. Actually, in my opinion, it was the other way around. It's not that Oiorpatas benefit from E9N4 more than they'll do from, say, W9B4 or whatever. The thing is they ended having that bless, becouse Gorgon was so awesome that nobody else used other chasis. And once you are pigeonholed to a Chasis that has Earth and Nature, it makes a lot of sense to have a E/N bless. There were cheap ways to get E9/N4 with other pretenders. People used the Gorgon becouse of the chasis.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that.

Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

[Korwin]

Just play Vanilla, no problem with Ashdod nerfs!

[Executor]

What now? ****, I still think Ashdod is OP. The problem with Ashdod is not the sacred giants and those great troops but the recruitable SC Adons. Frankly Ashdod shouldn't buy anything except an Adon every turn.

As for the sacreds, I never saw anyone buy Ahiman Anakites even before the nerf due to the high resource cost and Sheshai Anakites are still quite powerful if you take an earth bless, and at the very least you'll take a minor one which goes a long way in a battle. And I don't get why you *have to* have zero encumbrance, how many battles actually last that long the the troops pass out? Most battle last up to 15 turns or so usually and who gives a **** if you get fatigued a little.

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

What now? ****, I still think Ashdod is OP. The problem with Ashdod is not the sacred giants and those great troops but the recruitable SC Adons. Frankly Ashdod shouldn't buy anything except an Adon every turn.

As for the sacreds, I never saw anyone buy Ahiman Anakites even before the nerf due to the high resource cost and Sheshai Anakites are still quite powerful if you take an earth bless, and at the very least you'll take a minor one which goes a long way in a battle. And I don't get why you *have to* have zero encumbrance, how many battles actually last that long the the troops pass out? Most battle last up to 15 turns or so usually and who gives a **** if you get fatigued a little.

Have you read any of the thread? If you recruit 150gold 88res troops, you can only recruit one or 2 a turn. So your going to end up with 10 troops going up against 200 troops. Your troops will defiantely fatigue out.

And if you just recruit Adons, you will definately be dead by turn 20. Because you won't be able to equip them that early.

[Executor]

Yes, that's why I wouldn't buy just sacreds, especially those higher resource ones. I'd rely a bit on PD if I'm going up against larger numbers, Ashdod has great PD, and I'd add other troops, indies if needed.
Research isn't really a problem, Ashdod can easily afford an awake sage pretender to rush alteration and construction and still have a good bless.
Something else to keep in mind is that whoever fights Asdod is likely to fight in a H3 land, meaning they get +2 enc as well.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Niefl Jarls could stand to be nerfed. Niefl *Giants* not as much. In fact, its generally considered better to ignore the Niefl Giants at the moment and use Jotun Skinshifters.

I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.

And you still haven't answered the question: namely what other bless even conceivably works with them. Maybe because there isn't one?

I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

I believe the Niefl Giant gold to attack ratio is 125g per attack, for anyone keeping track.

Like it matters.... A group of 5+ Niefl giants produce such a cold aura that they would kill any non-cold inmune chaff by hundreds in no time. If Ashdod Giants would have a Fire Aura, I wouldn't find their 150g88r encumbrance 7 overpriced. They don't have, though. So they are overpriced.

You're wrong as a matter of fact here. Gorgon is available to multiple nations, but was only nerfed because of its availability to Sauromatia. Either QM or Llamabeast, maybe both, have said as much. So there's something specific to Sauromatia as to why it was nerfed, and as the chassis strength is clearly a feature of it in itself, that clearly isn't it because the Pans also had full access to that.

By multiple nations you mean Pangea? Or id there another one?

Recruitable sacreds, otoh, and recruitable thugs, are nation specific. The logical conclusion is Sauromatia was a problem because the cheap E9N4 bless with an awake SC was too much due to the bless effect on Sauromatia's recruitables. (Whether it was thugs or troops is rather irrelevant).

Currently you can have cheap E9N4 bless with sauromatia with several options. Great Mother allows you E9N4 with Dom6 and 1 net positive scale, while the Gorgon let you have the same with 2 net positive scales. The diference in cost is not so high. The difference in effectiveness is, becouse Gorgon Chasis is 100 times better than Great Mother chasis.

[llamabeast]

If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

Obviously this might be desirable, but it isn't possible to modify the bless effects.

[Starbelly Geek]

So what's the preferred build now for Ashdod? Something like an awake rainbow with 4N and moderate scales and a roll toward strange Zamzummite skelly spam/thug reverse communions? E4S6N4 dormant to get all the Conjuration summons and Wish with a decent boost to Adons? A monolith with N4S4 and killer scales?