Ashdod is worthless now

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, the reason I'm frustrated with Triqui is he seems to be offering a false dilemma. This quote sums it up pretty clearly:

So you agree with my previous statement, they have 2 ways to play, E10, or losing. Don't you? Becouse you said it otherwise a couple of posts ago. It's hard to follow your "reasoning" with that much flip-flop.
So, please, let be clear:
Is Ashdod a "you must play as this, always, with no other option, period" nation?

No no no no.

Its not a choice between E10 or losing. Its a choice between (*taking a bless for the sacred you have* and using the sacred) OR (*not using the sacred* and doing something different.) (Parentheses provided to be clear on what the choices are since Triqui insists on taking things out of context, like 'them' out to mean Ashdod instead of Anakim).

If you want to use Anakim, you take an ~E10N4 bless, that's just the way it is. No other bless even begins to make sense, even pre-nerf. What would you take? Seriously? Anakim have been specifically balanced around being used with an E10 bless because otherwise they are too powerful with an E10 bless.

Nothing compels you to use Anakim, however. If you don't use Anakim, you can do something totally different.

Pure scales Ashdod works just fine. You probably want to sneak N4 in anyway, but ignoring or mostly ignoring the blessing just means you use more regular troops and no sacred troops. You know, like any other nation who doesn't take a blessing?

Most nations sacreds have a limited range of blessings that make any sense on them. Very few nations have sacreds that work with a wide variety of blesses. No one takes E9 on Shadow Vestals or flagellants. No one takes W9 on Niefl Giants. These things aren't things that CBM should be trying to accomodate because the bless does not make sense for the chassis. If you complained 'E9 doesn't work on flagellants' people would laugh at you. And just how many blesses actually work on Niefl Giants? Are they also a problem because E9N4 or lesser versions thereof is the only bless that works with them?

So you've got a big badass giant sacred troop. When used with a big E bless its perfectly viable. The *nation* is still viable without a big E bless, it just *uses different units*. CBM's mission is accomplished - there's no longer a right way to play (You'd have been a fool to use anything other than sacreds with a big E bless before the nerf, so the nerf actually diversified Ashdod's plausible strategies).

So what is his issue?
Is it that Anakim are unuseable? They clearly aren't - if you take a bless that fits them.

Is it that Ashdod only has one way to play? They clearly don't, I've named two builds that I know work (E10N4 or full scales - and actually, the full range of scales + light E+N blesses also work), and I've got some really bizarre ideas for stuff you might do if you knew something about your starting position before the game began. (Summons requiring wastelands are really obnoxious).

And if you wanted to focus on summons (sacred or otherwise) you have *multiple* pretender choices which provide gems every turn, such as the Monolith, Son of the Sun (fire edition), Lord of Rebirth, and Great Enchantress - all of whom provide 1s or equivalent per turn, and all of which provide gems that you either can use nationally or you have national summons for or both.

And your sacred summons have different issues than your sacred recruitables. Se'irim want a W9-focused bless, Shedim are probably in a similar boat. Malakh don't have the encumbrance issue Anakim do so E4N4 + a few other light blesses might be superior for them. Ditanu are undead and can't use the N bless at all and the E bless of less value.

So I'm really not seeing the 'one right way to play' issue. I'm seeing a 'some units are not worth using if you don't take a blessing for them' issue - but I can think of maybe 3 nations where you'll buy the sacred regardless of what blessing you take, and those are all named Mictlan.

I will completely agree Anakim troops aren't worth using without an E10N4 bless. They aren't supposed to be. This is not the same as saying *Ashdod* isn't worth using without that bless - Ashdod has another ~7 troop options, most of which are viable.

[triqui]

There is a difference between "this unit does not work well with this bless" (ie: Vestals with E9) and "this unit does not work at all with any bless except one" (ie: Annakite without E10). First case gives you plenty options (you can use Vestals with F9, or W9, or D9, or S9, or combination of those, or mild E4W4F4). The second case give you one option: E10. Well, gives you two: E10, or chosing other unit. Although I'm not sure this count as an option...

Anyway, we at least have come to the agreement that encumbrance 7 make E10 absolutelly mandatory for them. What we disagree is that, in my opinion, they aren't worth the 150g88r cost (the highest cost in the game, by a far margin, as they DOUBLE the cost of the next middle age sacred), even with E10.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

There is a difference between "this unit does not work well with this bless" (ie: Vestals with E9) and "this unit does not work at all with any bless except one" (ie: Annakite without E10). First case gives you plenty options (you can use Vestals with F9, or W9, or D9, or S9, or combination of those, or mild E4W4F4). The second case give you one option: E10. Well, gives you two: E10, or chosing other unit. Although I'm not sure this count as an option...

D9 and F9 are both pretty bad shadow vestal blesses - they only have one attack. W9 and S9 are really their only options.

E9N4 is really the only option for Niefl Giants. And Fomorian recruitable sacred troops like Unmarked. If you don't take that bless you don't use those troop options. (Fomoria actually has another totally different bless strategy, but it involves Morrigans, a summon, instead of recruitable sacreds).

Also virtually requiring E9+,N4: Wardens, Knights of the Chalice, Black Templars, sacred Centaurs, Sauromatian sacreds (both), Serpent Cataphracts, Blindfighters, Agarthan sacreds (excepting the stone throwers who only really want the N4), and probably more.

Flagellants are pretty useless without W9.

Similarly Battle Maidens are useless without W9.

Any bless but W9 is wasted on giboleth. Similarly whatever the kailasa ranged attack sacred is. (Because W9 is the only bless that works with ranged sacreds).

Most sacreds only work with 1-2 bless arrangements and aren't worth buying without those set ups. This is not news.

[triqui]

I think I'll redirect you to Peter Ebbesen elegant post:

" For the love of god, don't take what is "the only sensible way to play a nation competitively on Lamaserver" as being the same as "the only way anybody sane would play a nation" and don't denigrate those who quite correctly point out that the changes made to balance one playstyle (that happens to be the favourite Lamaserver style for the nation in question) significantly hurts another playstyle. "

I've seen people using W9 Marignon Chalice kinghts, for devastating effect. I've seen people -like myself- using D9S9 Vestals(which work great), I've seen people using blesses other than E9 in sauromatian cavalry, I've even seen people using W9 on Fomoria Unmarkeds, go figure. Plus I've seen several times people buying sacreds with just average rainbow blesses (like W4F4E4B4), becouse +2 to most stats plus higher than average morale is often worth it.

There are actually several guides in this same web that offer different approachs to what you say are "mandatory" blesses. For example, S9F9 flagellants are named in some guides here, instead of your "must have W9 or they are useless" approach. I can link you a couple of other guides where people is suggesting different blesses for some of the troops you mention, if you want. Baalz Sauromatia Guide suggest, among others, a W9N4 bless and a E9W9 bless, maybe you should PM him and tell him he is completelly wrong and he should play the right way, which is your way.

Until it fell off from the favor of masses to be replaced by E9N4-8, W9F9 was actually "the" must have bless in almost any guide. It was not until Thugs and SC replaced completely troops in the most usual playstyle, that E9 replaced W9F9. So the whole "half the sacreds need E9N4" is utterly wrong. Actually, most the time, E9N4 is the bless you put to your thugs to save gems for reinvigoration items.

Even more important: there's a difference between a unit getting a high benefit from a bless (for example, Jaguars from W9, or Vestals from S9), and that bless being *mandatory* for them. Encumbrance 7 units that are outnumbered 10-1 *need* E10. That's beyond question. You have said it yourself. However, you can use Vestals, Knights, Wardens, Spiders, Jaguars with several different blesses, and they'll work. They might be more or less optimized, but they never stop to function.

I bet, however, that we can say everyone else (including those writing the guides liked in the first posts of this forum) is wrong, and you are right. So all sacreds are made to build just 1 or 2 bless strategy on them, anybody trying different approachs is idiot, fine. Let's move on on the next subject then.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Until it fell off from the favor of masses to be replaced by E9N4-8, W9F9 was actually "the" must have bless in almost any guide. It was not until Thugs and SC replaced completely troops in the most usual playstyle, that E9 replaced W9F9. So the whole "half the sacreds need E9N4" is utterly wrong. Actually, most the time, E9N4 is the bless you put to your thugs to save gems for reinvigoration items.

And why did it fall out of favor? Because the people taking thug-based blesses were winning perhaps?

Niefl Giants do not work with any blesses beside E9+N4+. Unsurprisingly, they are also size 5 giants with good defenses and few attacks. Would you like to complain about that too? The alternative to E9+N4+ is to *not use* Niefl Giants and use Jotun Skinshifters instead.

W9 with Fomoria usually means its using Morrigans, not Unmarked. Certainly not massing unmarked well past the expansion phase.

----
Was there a different bless that worked on Anakim pre-nerf which no longer works?

What would you like to see work on them that wouldn't make them unstoppable monsters if someone did take E10N4?

ie, what is actually hurt unduly by this change? Or were you expecting CBM to dramatically change the unit so new bless possibilities were available for it?
----

No bless is a also a valid choice - you aren't required to use your sacreds or invest in a blessing.

(And on Sauromatia in particular - there may have been guides which suggested other things, but in practice E9N4 was so ubiquitous that the Gorgon pretender was nerfed specifically because of Sauromatia).

[Korwin]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Any bless but W9 is wasted on giboleth. Similarly whatever the kailasa ranged attack sacred is. (Because W9 is the only bless that works with ranged sacreds).

Death Bless for ranged sacreds?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Korwin

Death Bless for ranged sacreds?

Increased affliction chance probably applies, but the D9 death weapon blessing doesn't iirc. I think it was vfb who tested it a couple years ago.

Not that increased afflictions for gibboleths actually makes that much of a difference in their performance.

[Squirrelloid]

FWIW, these are all teh guides on Ashdod I could find. Both consider E10N6 mandatory even before the CBM nerfs.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41770
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Dominio...Nations/Ashdod

Was there a game you saw Ashdod use their sacreds and a different bless? I'm trying to understand what was actually hurt.

[kianduatha]

But doesn't having enc-5 Ahiman Anakites pigeonhole Ashdod into having an E10N4/6 bless far more than enc-7 giants does?

triqui, I presume part of your fervor about this is because you are currently playing Ashdod and are in a war with MA Ermor? I would suggest that Squirrel is right and focusing on commanders would be a much better use of your resources. Slapping some better armor on a handful of Zamzummites or Adons or Talmai Elder and making sure they have 0 enc would go much further than relying on relatively unsupported sacreds.

As far as I can tell, the meat of your argument is that Ahiman Anakites are overcosted now. They still work about as well as before for expanding/acting as a second target for an Adon, so reducing the price might cause imbalances in those directions. Also, gift of reasoning them is...very nice, come to think of it. Pay 4 earth gems for a girdle of might and you more than account for the difference in encumbrance.

[Scaramuccia]

E9N4 have one killer advantage over F9W9 - it is usually 280 points cheaper. You could have nice scales with E9N4 and you will have bad scales with dual bless. This is one reason of E9 bless popularity, the other - it is just the best bless.