Expanded Nations Packs released!

[rdonj]

Keep in mind that empire isn't a finished nation yet, and due to the whole "every mage that's worthwhile costs gems" mechanic it may have some fine tuning to do yet. But before the most recent version, empire has felt on the weak side if anything.

So the latest version of empire has fairly cheap level 2 mages in all paths save blood now. This is pretty much the big thing this nation has going for it, cheap diversity. The recruitable mages are absolutely useless except for research and summoning your real mages. So while you do get a lot of diversity, you are spending gems to have your mages that you can't spend elsewhere. So while it is cheap to get diversity, and a lot cheaper than many other nations get as far as access to non-national paths goes, this nation does have to keep investing because all of its mages are diversity mages. It is the main strength of the nation though.

On the other hand its army is hardly awesome. It's pretty mediocre, in fact. Pretty much anything you can recruit is more or less the bog standard of average, with only a few standout units. Marksmen due to being the cheapest and most massable arbalest-wielding guys ever are the biggest of these. Nothing else is really better than usable. Swordsmen are good arrow catchers, and their cavalry is decent. Tribute to order summons quite nice cavalry units, but they're gold inefficient compared to the recruitable knights, with the exception of the inner circle reiksguard. And flagellants are those same guys marignon gets, and that you get from random events, with the exception of a few more hp. Which, while they do work, are still not that amazing. The big benefit of them is that they're very, very cheap. Even greatswords aren't amazing, you really need the retinues to make them justifiable because they recruit/move so slow.

I definitely don't think altdorf is the strongest of the warhammer mods right now. I'm not sure who I quite think is, but there are several contenders. I had the luxury of playing Itza before they got nerfed hard, and would have had no trouble saying they were the strongest in the past Maybe they still are, but they've lost a lot of their potency lately.

[Renojustin]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Keep in mind that empire isn't a finished nation yet, and due to the whole "every mage that's worthwhile costs gems" mechanic it may have some fine tuning to do yet. But before the most recent version, empire has felt on the weak side if anything.

So the latest version of empire has fairly cheap level 2 mages in all paths save blood now. This is pretty much the big thing this nation has going for it, cheap diversity. The recruitable mages are absolutely useless except for research and summoning your real mages. So while you do get a lot of diversity, you are spending gems to have your mages that you can't spend elsewhere. So while it is cheap to get diversity, and a lot cheaper than many other nations get as far as access to non-national paths goes, this nation does have to keep investing because all of its mages are diversity mages. It is the main strength of the nation though.

On the other hand its army is hardly awesome. It's pretty mediocre, in fact. Pretty much anything you can recruit is more or less the bog standard of average, with only a few standout units. Marksmen due to being the cheapest and most massable arbalest-wielding guys ever are the biggest of these. Nothing else is really better than usable. Swordsmen are good arrow catchers, and their cavalry is decent. Tribute to order summons quite nice cavalry units, but they're gold inefficient compared to the recruitable knights, with the exception of the inner circle reiksguard. And flagellants are those same guys marignon gets, and that you get from random events, with the exception of a few more hp. Which, while they do work, are still not that amazing. The big benefit of them is that they're very, very cheap. Even greatswords aren't amazing, you really need the retinues to make them justifiable because they recruit/move so slow.

The mage system for Altdorf will be tough to get used to, and I can see neonates having issues with it. The gem usage seems to be right on, but at such low levels of research, they still seem very powerful. The ? mages themselves (no lab required) all carry useful battle magic lines, and at 60gp/3 research, all it takes to turn them from useful to very efficient is a +1 magic scale. I see most of the difficulty of the use of Altdorf in the proper use of their mages. Do you research, site search, or fight? The fact that they can do all these without much opportunity loss I think makes them very handy.

Their army is both diverse and extremely powerful. From excellent crossbows to the superb Swordsmen: 12gp 2-move heavy infantry (and they are in most respects HI), cheap heavy lance/full plate cavalry and big-hp Flagellants that get to do their devastating attacks significantly more often than even a normal Flagellant because they can survive... there's not a bad troop in the bunch, and more, they're SO, SO CHEAP. Given that it will take some production scales to take advantage of most of it, but even their 8g/8r dual-wielding, ambidextrous infantry is usable and effective. Production isn't even necessary between that, Generals (the Greatswords are free, mind you), and (oh my god 13/7) Marksmen. I cannot think of any non-mod nation that could beat them in a straight army fight. Add in Reiksguard Cavalry and it's just not fair; those basically do not die. Knights of the Rose were charging them to no avail; they are a wicked tool.

It's exactly as if someone thought, I want to min/max this army for gp expenditure and upkeep, while keeping everything about the specific unit types that makes them great... oh and add some armor, too. Not only do they get the job done in grand Empire fashion, they do it cheaper than almost anyone. I just figured that the mage system was in place in order to hobble them, but by mid-game the astounding diversity has got to help them more than anything. I can see them having more difficulty in the endgame where more ritual magic is being cast... but by then they've survived and thrived, and they can throw everything in the book at you, if not as much of it as a like-sized opponent can bring to bear.

[WraithLord]

What are the Reiksguard Cavalry stats and cost?- What makes them so good?
Are they better 1:1 than say, Bretonn knights of the realm or grail knights?

I did start an MP game with Altdorf but didn't have time to get far...

EDIT, by "Reiksguard Cavalry" did you mean Inner Circle Reiksguard Knight?
EDI2, if so I found their stats (below) looks good but not broken good unless I'm missing something.
#hp 12
#size 3
#mounted
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 5
#str 12
#att 12
#def 12
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 18
#gcost 65
#rcost 6
#armor "Empire Full Plate"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#weapon "Broad Sword"
#weapon "Lance"
#weapon 710
#armor "Kite Shield"
#awe 1
#nametype 104
#end

[Renojustin]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

What are the Reiksguard Cavalry stats and cost?- What makes them so good?
Are they better 1:1 than say, Bretonn knights of the realm or grail knights?

I did start an MP game with Altdorf but didn't have time to get far...

Well, they have 21 armor and 16 defense, lances, heavy cavalry attack, and most importantly, Awe. You also get 12 of them for 1000gp and 120 Resources, along with a thuggish commander. The large amount of high-bonus Standard commanders in the army means that they don't normally rout unless they're pretty much annihilated, too.

So they're not as good as Grail Knights at 1:1; however, they cost 2/3rds the gold and 1/7th the resources, and do not require magical commanders, all while fulfilling most of the role. And I think we can agree that Grail Knights are basically the end-all and be-all of cavalry.

WOW updated: they cost 0 upkeep.

[Renojustin]

Originally Posted by Renojustin

WOW updated: they cost 0 upkeep.

Ok after extensive testing this is not true.

[rdonj]

Yeah, the main point about reiksguard inner circle is the awe. Otherwise they aren't *that* special. They are purely inferior to the grail knight, but as said they are a bit cheaper than the grail knight. Grail knights are 120 gold per, with inner circle reiksguard being effectively a bit below 100. Grail knights of course have the nation-specific blesses with cool buffs attached too, and are sacred, so that definitely puts them far ahead if the bretonnia player has a decent bless in terms of overall power.

Empire's crossbows aren't that great just because they take a lot of work to mass. Armor is okay, but 99% of the time I'd rather have numbers than protection for crossbowmen. And the arbalest guys cost a bit more gold and use arbalests, which are kind of a double edged sword. The swordsmen are pretty much the most standout unit of the lot, but I would rather have, say, saurus infantry instead. Those guys are bruisers, and take pretty much no resources. They also beat f9s9 empire flagellants in equal numbers But yeah, I did win an mp game backed by hordes of empire flagellants.

Empire's biggest problems are really in early game, after that things start getting a lot smoother for them. But basically you have knights, flagellants, and arbalests to defend yourself with early game. And can't rely at all on magic.