spotting when turning around your units

[Cross]

Originally Posted by RERomine

One thing about hull swivels triggering op-fire, if that occurs you almost have to provide a separate ability to do sector searches without a pivot/turn. This brings us back to the thread topic, more or less. Even as a separate ability, searching around will still be a tedious task.

You wouldn't have to provide a separate search. Not having a separate search may model the limited search ability of a single man with his head above the turret, or men peering through slits/periscopes. Forcing armour to rely more on infantry for spotting may not be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by RERomine

One final thought. If an enemy unit is seen on your flank or rear during your movement phase, what do you typically do if you decide to fire at it? Personally, I orient my front armor to the threat (well, about 15 degrees off straight on) and then fire. This is in case I miss and it returns fire. If this is what we do during our movement phase, why would we do something different during op-fire?

I agree. Well if nothing else changes, perhaps tanks should also be turning their hulls when shooting op-fire so they at least get the same benefit that the 'lesser' sp-guns currently get.

However, if hull swivels were to trigger op-fire, then one advantage of a tank is that you could choose to skip the hull swivel, just turn the turret and fire. Your shot may itself cause op-fire, but at least you get a shot in first, with a hull swivel triggered op-fire, the enemy gets a shot before you.


Cross

[RERomine]

Update

Neutral steering wasn't as common in WWII AFVs as I expected. For the Germans, Tigers and maybe Panthers and that was about it. It could be fairly common with British build AFVs and maybe not even used by US AFVs during WWII.

This means for those unfortunates without a transmission that allows one track to go forward and the other to go backwards at the same time, to do a 180 degree change in direction they have to physically move.

Given this information, any change in the code might want to classify any change in hull facing as a move, unless the vehicle was capable of neutral steering. It would require another column in the database, however

[Marek_Tucan]

There are still the problems you noted - I would say that neutral steer has the only advantage that you can turn on spot, but still you throw off your aim, kick up dust etc. - so still the enemy gets the shot.
I would say details like this can be easily overlooked with a "one size fits all" hull move = movement.
Then it might require right-click on turreted vehicle meaning just turret move and say shift+RC (or 2nd RC in the same direction) hull move?
Would again up the value of turreted vehicle a bit, even in defense (you can sector search without turning the vehicle).

[francoisD]

many interesting posts fror various authors.

my own conclusion is that something could be added to take into account all of this, that would surely improve the gameplay.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by francoisD

just to go back to the initial post about the free turns within your hex allowing to spot units

i just want to know if multiplying the turns around all the sides of your hexes multiply the number of chances to spot units, or do you get a single chance per enemy unit and per the unit you turn currenlty?

if so, it would be unfair. but i do not know how the game is coded...

This was answered before I think, something like every time a unit turns its a new check. So depending on die rolls it could do better or worse.

A penalty could I suppose be added to subsequent checks but how? You can turn 1 faceing without penalty? it would have to be % based not a set number poor quality units are bad enough anyway & a set number would penalise them even more. As said I hardly turn any units only if I am fairly sure somethings out there. But often when I do I want to move him fire with others then spin him as he is the closest undetected unit.
If winning means that much my opponent wants to spin every unit round he can I wont know but how time consuming & boring is that. One of the things about this game is nice interface & quick speed of play the only thing that takes time is deciding what to do.
I have no idea if it is the case but it feels like units focus there attention on an area where fire comes from becoming more likely to see other units in that area. Perhaps this is tied into it turning slightly though dont think so but would not like to lose this it feels right.

[francoisD]

imp, if you are right, i think it is unfair and some people could try to cheat by getting an undecent large number of trials in some critical area.

i have lost many tanks due to size 0 infantry troops where there was intense fighting, and if you are correct, i will be ready to spin my troops in the same hexes dozens of times to be sure to not loose tanks by the same way any longer.

since i discovered that you can freely spot enemy troops when turning around within your hexes, i am already doing this at least one time in important areas, and it does not take so much time.

i do not know how you play, but in my games always appear many times intense fighting involving many troops, and i spend much more time in thinking about what to do and in what order than clicking with my mouse.

so checking with an elite scout dozens of time in the same hex just to discover new troops is NOT time consuming for me.

more and more i am thinking that something has to be added to the game to prevent such abuse of the game (i.e. unlimited free actions).

[RERomine]

I'm not sure it is really unfair, since everyone has the ability to do the same thing. If one side has an edge in troop numbers, they might be at a disadvantage in experience. A more experienced unit can spot better than an inexperienced one. When you boil it down, however, the more eyes you have searching, the more likely you are of spotting the enemy. I don't see anything unfair here.

[francoisD]

you do not understand the problem roremine

if imp is right, and i am not sure of this, a single unit get multiple chances to spot

assume a given infantry troop has a probabiliy of 10% to discover infantry troops, and 50% of bigger sized units PER TRY.

then simply by cliking several times on all the sides of a given hex, you raise all the probabilities to 100%

because you get multiple chances...

whatever the correct numbers, by clicking several times, you are guaranteed to discover all enemy units whatever their cover, exp, size, and so on...

i do not think this is fair. i think this is pure cheating and totally against the spirit of this game. and i am quite sure that some players already use this.

IF imp is right...

contrarily the situation you describe corresponds to the case a single unit gets a single chance to spot by hex. everything is fair, if you get more troops, you get more chances, balanced by the exp, of course.

this is the correct game.

the question is that, do you get multiple chances to spot by unit and by hex?

edit: or more exactly, do you get FREE multiple chances to spot?

because if this is free, players will try numerous times.

and we fall again in the second big question, if their is a price to turn your units in the same hex. because if their is a price, you cannot get multiple chances (or less)...

(except for units that the player does not intend to do anything else than spotting, but then to solve that problems we have to think together i guess)

[Imp]

Originally Posted by francoisD

you do not understand the problem roremine

if imp is right, and i am not sure of this, a single unit get multiple chances to spot

assume a given infantry troop has a probabiliy of 10% to discover infantry troops, and 50% of bigger sized units PER TRY.

then simply by cliking several times on all the sides of a given hex, you raise all the probabilities to 100%

because you get multiple chances...

whatever the correct numbers, by clicking several times, you are guaranteed to discover all enemy units whatever their cover, exp, size, and so on...

i do not think this is fair. i think this is pure cheating and totally against the spirit of this game. and i am quite sure that some players already use this.

IF imp is right...

contrarily the situation you describe corresponds to the case a single unit gets a single chance to spot by hex. everything is fair, if you get more troops, you get more chances, balanced by the exp, of course.

this is the correct game.

the question is that, do you get multiple chances to spot by unit and by hex?

edit: or more exactly, do you get FREE multiple chances to spot?

because if this is free, players will try numerous times.

and we fall again in the second big question, if their is a price to turn your units in the same hex. because if their is a price, you cannot get multiple chances (or less)...

(except for units that the player does not intend to do anything else than spotting, but then to solve that problems we have to think together i guess)

Pretty sure he does & %s do not stack up that way you would have to do it loads of times to get near to 100%. Mobhack obviosly has this on his to do list & if he feels its justified/fixable might change it discussing further wont change anything.
The only "person" who suffers is the AI as it does not do it but as a benchmark I am guessing most people use it less in a whole game than you do in a turn so for the standard player its not really an issue.

[Marek_Tucan]

I think that turning to the original sector again is not joined by another search chesk unless something happened in the meantime (rally event, fire event etc).