Stealth Armor: Unbalanced

[geoschmo]

IMHO all races shold be basically equal in tech terms in a high tech start. That is my definition of "balanced". Some races will have slight advantages over others at different points of the game in a non-high tech start, that is what it makes it so interesting. And some races will have advantages in some areas over other races, but be weaker in others. I like to call Space Empires a great big fancy game of "Rock, Paper, Sciccors." Nowhere is that more evident than in the area of cloaking.

What I think would be cool would be something like this. This is not all my idea, I am just trying to tie up some different ideas I have read from others. Each racial trait would have it's own special cloak. This would be defeatable by the same level of that race's sensor, but would require one level higher of a standard cloak sersor, (Hyper optics, Tacheyon sensors.) Once you get to the higest level of racial cloak, a player that doesn't have that racial tech would have to research a new branch that would give them a specialized sensor capable of defeating that specific racial cloak. In this way the racial techs would have an advatage, as they should, they paid a lot in racial points for that trait after all, but that by the end of the game it will have evened out over time and after a lot of research, as it should.

Examples: ( Remeber all sensors scan at a level one higher than their number)

Psychic Cloak, Psychic racial trait required. Personel trained in the ability of manipulation the sensory lobes of other intelligent races. Use of this tecnique can "cloak" a ship by affecting others awareness of it's presence. Also by means of telekenesis can affect mechanical and electronic equipment to the same effect. (This explains why it works on ships with master computers)

Psychic Cloak 1, can defeat Psychic Sensors at level 1, can defeat all other Sensors at a level 2.
Psychic Cloak 2, can defeat Psychic Sensors at level 2, can defeat all other Sensors at a level 3.
Psychic Cloak 3, can defeat Psychic Sensors at level 3, can defeat all other Sensors at a level 4.

Since the highest level of sensors scann at a level 4, at this point a Psychic Cloak 3 would be unbeatable by anything but a Psychic Sensor 3 (which scans at a psychic level 4). So we add a new tech area that is accesable by non-Psychic races.

Tech Area: Psionic Studies, research into the latent psychic abilities in all intelligent races. Concentration on devising tests to find individuals with greater than normal abilities and teqniques and devices for training and optimizing those abilities.

Component: Psionic Sensor. Personell trained in Psionic Studies and equipment used to focus and enhances their abilities. Cabable of detecting ships in the same system that are protected by a Psychic Shield. Ability: Equivalent to Standard Psychic Sensor of level 3.

Here's the catch, the Psionic Sensor only defeats Psychic cloaking. So if skip the standard sensors and go straight for the Psionic sensor, or you will be suseptable to standard cloaking, and Stealth Armor.

This could be done for all the racial traits with suficent mumbo jumbo. It actually wouldn't be all that difficult to mod in, but I agree the AI would have a heck of a time dealing with it.

Geoschmo

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Argh]

If y'all don't mind, I'm going to butt in. . .

This sort of back-and-forth about stealth has led me to what looks like a good compromise:

Every racial tech-tree should get. . . oh, I dunno, something like "Matter Detectors" or something. . . that is effective against *all* cloaking systems, but only at a limited range(say, range 2), and at a high level of expense. And they should get this tech pretty early. Ideally, this tech's maintenance requirements would make it impractical to use on ships, unless you *really* needed it.

All other cloaking systems should, ideally be set up in a grid of cross-effectiveness. . . so that, for example, Grav-Wave Detectors negate Gravity Cloaks, are able to detect ships with Gluon Flux Armor at a range of 4 spaces, and cannot detect ships with Phase Cloaks. I'd make it a perfect grid, so that, no matter *what* racial tech tree you picked, you'd have one race that was effectively invisible from you, if they chose to be so- all you'd have to do is trade for somebody else's technology, however, and you'd effectively negate their special advantage.

When designing a game system, I try to avoid unique or one-off systems as much as possible, unless I provide other ways to accrue a similar benefit. It'd very hard to design around a system where one race out of 8 has the unique ability to destroy stars, for example- it's such a potentially destructive ability that everything else would have to be cut back to compensate.

Stealth tech is definately one of those hard-to-balance items- not knowing with some precision where your enemies are is a recipe for disaster in a multiplayer game, unless you have an overwhelming advantage in terms of materiel and time. I can send a half-dozen smallish fleets around to your systems, and it's win-win- if I can't glass your planets, because you have sufficient(expensive) fleet cover, then I can get out of the system with minimal losses, because you can't see me. . .

[DirectorTsaarx]

I have another interesting idea to add to all this; it may have been mentioned before, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

(EDIT: the below speculations would require hard-code changes, not just modding /EDIT)

Instead of the absolute system of "sensor X defeats cloak Y", make it a percentage chance. For consistency & believability, higher-level sensors should have a 99% or 100% chance of defeating lower-level cloaks/stealth. But (as seen in many Star Trek episodes, both old & new), sometimes an experienced captain (or his experienced science officer) can find ways to detect cloaked ships. Which brings up the other part of the plan: ship experience (and maybe fleet experience) provide bonuses on the cloak/sensor percentages. So an experienced ship/fleet can use their stealth better, and an experienced ship/fleet can detect cloaked ships better.

That's the qualitative view; the quantitative view requires a bit of work for balancing, but maybe something like:

Sensor I: 100% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
25% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
0% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

Sensor II: 120% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
100% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
0% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

Sensor III: 140% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
120% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
100% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

If the sensor ship has experience, that counts as a direct bonus (e.g., 20% experience and Sensor II gives a 70% chance to detect a Level 4 cloak).

If the cloaked ship has experience, that counts as a direct penalty against the sensor (so that same 20% experience ship with Level 4 cloaking has a 70% chance of sneaking by a satellite with Sensors II).

Finally, the different types of cloaking have bonuses/penalties against different types of sensors. (The chart above is for when the sensor type matches the cloak type, e.g. Temporal vs. Temporal). So a Psychic Sensor would have a 20% penalty vs. Temporal Cloak, but maybe a 10% bonus against standard cloaking.

We could even get really tricky and apply bonuses or penalties for actions by the cloaked ship; like a bonus if the ship doesn't move, and a penalty if it moves more than 5 spaces in a single game turn. Even add bonuses & penalties according to size, just like the to-hit bonus/penalties.

As Geo points out, this would give the AI fits, especially if it has to research multiple cloaking and sensor techs and build ships/satellites with all of the various components (or at least fleet together a set of ships, each with a different type of sensor). But it would be interesting...

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]

[Baron Munchausen]

All these variations sound like great fun for humans. Have you considered what will happen to the AI? I doubt that an AI capable of sorting through all these cloak inter-relations has ever been designed. MM is having enough trouble making one smart enough to handle standard ships and units in open combat.

I'd be very happy to see cloaking/sensor operation changed to be range sensitive. If weaker sensors could detect even strong cloaks at short range and stronger sensors detect weaker cloaks at greater and greater range we'd have a pretty realistic system. Then expand the size of system maps a bit. We might have to use a 'windowed' navigation system like the combat screen but it'd be worth it. All the other stuff can be modded reasonably well for people that want it for 'human only' games.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[LGM]

quote:

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Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
All these variations sound like great fun for humans. Have you considered what will happen to the AI?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

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Who cares about the AI? I play only PBW games, unless I am testing something to try in a PBW game. Without cheating, AI will be at a severe disadvantage. Currently, SEIV empires do not remember things like Last known position of fleets, Last known presense of colonies, etc. The limited stored information in the game severly works against an AI, assuming you programmed it to think about these things. Perhaps special AI files could be stored on the hosting computer to remember stuff that player's empires currently cannot recall. Unless you are playing a rediculously simple game like Risk, the AI will be too hard to program competitively. People devote their entire careers writing AIs for Chess only has 16 units per side with 6 different kinds of pieces. Chess also has an exhaustive catalog of known good lines to follow that can be built into a database. SEIV and most strategic games are too complicated to program. When are you AIers going to give it up and let Aaron work on new features to make the game more diverse? The purpose of the AI is to learn the game so you do not get creamed by the first experienced human you meet. If you are not bored playing the AI, you are not ready to play humans.

The best effect of cloaks is it causes your opponent to research and deploy some sensors. Stealth Armor is nice in combination with Scattering armor for defense bonuses. If you get Stealth Armor, you expect to use it only for a short while. The same with Boarding Parties as someone else mentioned. However, with Boarding Parties, every ship needs a security team. Whereas to counter stealth, you only need one device per system (not per ship).

I like the idea of making racial cloaks one level hard to defeat for the non racial counter techs as long as the non racial counters are extended one level more in the game so they can be eventually countered. I do not want to be forced to play a certain advanced techs every game. As it stands now, I feel you have to either play Organic or design to fight an Organic. I would hate to have to always take Psychic just be be able to see the top level Psychic cloak.

I do not consider Stealth Armor to unbalancing (original thread), because its stealth effect never improves as you go from component I to II to III. The first sensor that can see it permanent negates it until they go for the actual Cloaking device under the Physics tree.

[Beck]

An Uber-weapon specific to races wouldn't have to be MAD, it would depend on what the item was. All I was trying to do was point out there are ways of balancing other than simply giving everybody a counter. If I can't see them now because I haven't developed the right scanner, I have to adapt my style of play to make allowances for not being able to see them. The only difference a Uber-cloak would make, is I'll never be able to see them unless I trade for a scanner. The point is they could be very expensive and use alot of supplies and take up alot of space. Then if someone wants to put one in a ship, he's trading off room for weapons to be able to move undetected and quality for quantity as he'll probably never be able to build very many. And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned. You'ld spend more time building defenses for each planet, etc. And his special cloaked ships will more than likely be more for special missions than his main fleet because of cost/maintenance.

[Phoenix-D]

"And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned"

Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

Phoenix-D

[bearclaw]

Wow, all these ideas and no time to create an "Ultimate Cloak" mod.....

Slightly off topic, but a comment that I feel I should make. Someone below mentioned about experaince affecting sensor abilites (fantastic idea, by the way!). I know this would be an effort to code into the game but Experiance should count for all sorts of things. Not just combat stuff. Sensors is a good example. Another would be ships of a high enough XP could do spot repairs to damaged systems. Say, for each 10 xp, a ship can repair 1% of damage. Done all the time in Star Trek and Star Wars too. In fact, come to think of it... it's a fairly standard Sci-Fi thing to do...

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Beck:


That is not entirely correct. Balance can be achieved by allowing each race an uber-weapon only defeatable by others of the same race. Then balance is achieved by each having an advantage others cannot defeat verses every weapon or component having a counter available to everyone. It is certainly tougher to set-up which is why you seldom encounter that type of balance. But given what the individual racial traits are supposed to mimic, actually makes more sense. It would certainly add to the depth of strategies in a multi-player game. Who do you ally with and ships with such weapons/components would be a valuable trading commodity.

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It sounds like what you are decribing is not a defense, but Mutually Assured Destruction. This makes sense to a point, but what about the players who prefer to play a race with no racial techs?

If the Psychics can build a cloak that you have no possibility of defeating, you cannot attack their ships. And you will be limited to standard cloaking devices which have counters available to everyone. You would reach a point in the game where you have no chance to stop the psychics, because you would not know where their ships were. While they could attack you with impunity.

Also, even if everyone is playing a race with some kind of uber-cloak, it then becomes simply a race to see who gets there first. I know the game is like that now in some respects, but this would appear to make it worse IMHO.

I think the cloaking system could be made much more varied and interesting by allowing different types of cloaks that would require specialized sensors to defeat. All I am saying is make sure that the sensors are available to everyone regardless of racial traits at some point. Make them more expensive to research if you wish, but they have to have some way to get them.

Geoschmo

[Beck]

quote:

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Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

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Yet if they were as expensive to build as I think they would have to be for any sort of balance coupled with the component for destroying a star which is already darn expensive you're talking something would decade or more to build. And with items that are or likely to be near the end of the research tree its something that would be appearing in the end game. They could lose the war long before one left spacedock let alone reach a star. He'ld have to send a fleet along with it because any systems I had important enough for you to waste a star destroyer on would have some sort of defenses on the star itself. Surely a player exercising such abilities in a human game would find himself a potential target of a coalition as other players band together or die one at a time. Just the threat that he could develop the technology could be enough in some games for players to gang up on them long before they have the capability to do as you suggest.