Burden of Time

[Sleepy]

I understand that part about the routing troops but I'm quite sure none got away, since it was just the mage-pretender and a handful of lackeys at the bitter end.
I went back to an earlier saved game and tried the battle again, only this time I attacked too early and Foul Air wasn't cast... so I can't confirm there was a caster in the only remaining territory who got killed and subsequently didn't have his GE cancelled. Not until tomorrow anyway, it's late and I'm getting, heh, sleepy.

g'night, and thanks for the replies so far...

[Master Shake]

My favorite route for dispelling Burden of Time (or anything else) is to use the Coytl. An Earth 1 Astral 1 mage can summon one. The Cotyl has Earth 3, Astral 3, and can dispel. It is a way to save a lot of gems if you have some earth gem income.

BTW, Burdon of Time does not just hit a few troops with afflication, it is often 100 or more. And even as Pangea with Gift of Health, units die every turn. Even worse, BoT seems to kill off the population in your provinces.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by geo981010:
Don't leave expensive artifacts on weak heroes - commanders can just die sometimes and you don't even get a note saying who died so it is pretty annoying.

This is one of the most frustrating flaws in the game. If a commander dies from a spell, disease, or whatever... the game should let you know.

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Master Shake:
My favorite route for dispelling Burden of Time (or anything else) is to use the Coytl. An Earth 1 Astral 1 mage can summon one. The Cotyl has Earth 3, Astral 3, and can dispel. It is a way to save a lot of gems if you have some earth gem income.

Pst! Nature, not Earth. Couatl is also a holy-3 priest.

[Sleepy]

Originally posted by Master Shake:
Even worse, BoT seems to kill off the population in your provinces.

It probably does, since my income has been taking a nosedive ever since BoT was cast. That's partly due to the increases unrest as well. The lack of income is nearly as annoying as having a mage go mute or feebleminded every few turns. Since most of my troops are now walking wounded AND complaining about back pay, I've decided to go with the flow and convert to a dead army. Since I can't get rid of BoT anymore I may as well use it to help me against the Last two nations.

cheers...

[Daynarr]

This is only for SINGLE PLAYER games. MP is different.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
If I'm a non-astral nation in a game containing Ermor, I can think of 3 ways of responding to the threat of Burden of Time:

1. Kill Ermor before it happens;
2. Resign immediately;
3. Die painfully after it happens.

Any others?

1. Good solution
2. That�s an option but I would hardly call it a solution
3. Same as 2

4. Wait for an astral nation to dispel it.
5. Use undead units yourself until it gets dispelled.
6. Cast other global enchantments to push it out.
7. Kill Ermor after it happens.
8. Kill the mage that cast the Burden of Time.
9. Empower a mage to be able to dispel it.
10. Help an astral nation to dispel it by giving them astral pearls.
11. Use cheap units for the meantime instead of any expensive ones you might have.
12. Use independent mages that have astral skill to dispel it.
13. Design your pretender with astral magic.

4. In SP you might as well use 2 or 3. It�s extremely rare occurrence that AI dispels GE. It usually overwrites it with BoT of it�s own and that won�t help you.

5. That�s doable only for other nations with undead themes (C'tis and Panganea and C'tis is astral nation). Other nations won�t have time or gem to use that option as winning strategy. However, it CAN be used to reduce casualties and strengthen your armies while BoT is active.

6. BoT is level 5 enhancement. If there is a nation who can cast it (has mage/pretender and has enough death gem income) it will probably be a first or one of the first GE that has been cast. This spell is, basically, cast very early in game or not at all. So this suggestion means that I have to cast 3-4 other GE in order to fill 5 GE limit and then cast some other HOPING that I will manage to dispel some existing enchantment and HOPING that BoT is the one being dispelled. That is not mentioning the gem cost and research needed to do that.

7. If you didn't do it by then you most certainly won't kill it while your troops commanders and mages are getting afflictions and dying from BoT and your income is dropping down while unrest is going up. Of course, this can be doable in some situations, so I wouldn't rule it out. It's just not very likely.

8. That is definitely a good solution but you have to know what mage cast it (can be red in Messages in 2.08 Version) and where he is. Finding that mage is usually very tough, but if you do find him - killing him would be best solution.

9. In order to empower mage you need astral gems (and a lot of them). For non-astral nation it�s not a valid solution since they have no astral income.

10. Hardly doable in SP game. Basically same as 4. Not to mention that if you can't dispel it yourself (have not enough gems), how could you help other nations do it? By cheering for them? J

11. Cheaper units die faster from BoT since they are less resistant and have less HP. Actually using large, more powerful troops is better way to go. They will get afflictions but won�t die and unit with affliction is certainly better then dead one. Basically you can either use all your income to buy troops or not, but if you buy cheap troops you will only get nearly useless army that will die like flies each turn from BoT and will additionally get overrun by and other army they encounter. This one is hardly any better then 2 or 3.

12. Independent mages hardly ever have more then 1 level in astral, and you need luck to find them at all (usually sages are your only option). Have you ever tried to get your sage to level 3 astral and dispel something with him? I never did since by the time you manage to do it, game is usually over. And it still depends too much on luck even to find one. And if you don�t have one by the time BoT is cast this is impossible to achieve since it takes too much time to do it. BoT is gonna get you.

13. Nation with astral pretender is no longer non-astral nation so it has no place in this discussion.

14. So instead of letting AI kill you and spend 70 gems for it, you are gonna kill yourself and spend 70 gems for it? BoT has effect on ALL LIVING TROOPS, not to mention killing population and increasing unrest.

15. Gift of Health is good buffer for BoT so this is a good delaying solution for nature nations. Of course only 1 can be cast at the time and there are usually several nations on map that will be able to cast it. AI actually like casting it so you will be hard pressed and need some luck to make sure active �Gift of Health� it YOUR �Gift of Health� but its doable. I often resort to this if I can't dispel BoT.

16. Much like 6.

-------------------

In MP this is completely another story. Only death nations will benefit from it and death nations have diplomacy problems with other players without this spell. Casting it would basically give you Mega evil empire status (from SE4). You would most certainly get gang banged from every other player on that map. Imagine your provinces getting bLasted with every damaging spell available from every other nation on map, while their troops invade all your borders looking under every bush and rock to find smart mage that casted BoT. You would probably be better of killing caster yourself then waiting for other players to do it.

[Xavier]

edit: dammit nevermind, I completely forgot I was only at the top of the second page of this thread and not the end of the thread....

...*mumbles something about reverse post order*....

[ February 14, 2004, 09:35: Message edited by: Xavier ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
...
4. Wait for an astral nation to dispel it.
4. In SP you might as well use 2 or 3. It�s extremely rare occurrence that AI dispels GE. It usually overwrites it with BoT of it�s own and that won�t help you.

If so, I'm lucky. The only time I've seen the AI cast BoT, the very next turn, another AI dispelled it.

...
9. In order to empower mage you need astral gems (and a lot of them). For non-astral nation it�s not a valid solution since they have no astral income.

Your arguments seem to assume the player's nation is rather weak, to be ruling out so many options. Such assumptions aren't saying much about BoT - you're mainly saying that if you're weak and they're strong and using BoT on you, then you're in trouble. If you're that weak though, you're in trouble when they do anything to you. Being unable to dispel any global enchantments is of course a weak situation to be in - many global spells are hard to deal with if you can't dispel them or cast something better yourself.

On the other hand, getting someone up to enough Astral to be able to dispel isn't all that hard. I did it with Iron Faith Ulm with an Astral-1 priest, and it wasn't hard. There are some items that can make this pretty cheap, especially if you have construction bonuses. If you assume they don't have astral gems to do this, you're saying they're too lame to dispel anyway. And you're probably ignoring that any gems can be made into astral gems at a 2:1 rate with alchemy, if need be.

As for cheaper units being more vulnerable to BoT... how does BoT take effect? What resists it?

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
All this is assuming you direct your research efforts and gem income to counter BoT at the start of the game, not after BoT is cast. If BoT is already cast, you simply have no time to boost and research what is needed to dispel it.

Of course you can do it. I've done it with default Ulm while fighting against an Impossible C'Tis, Marignon, and Abysia.

[PvK]

I wonder if regeneration rings help protect agaist BoT.

I also wonder if Vengeance of the Dead counts BoT victims against the caster? If it does, that would make for a very unpleasant nightmare for the caster, and a good way to take out any caster of a killing spell.

So far, I have had good luck finding AI GE casters in their national capital. It was so satisfying seeing my succubus (barely) kill that Arch Theurg Prophet who had cast Wrath of God!

Oh, another possibility is to summon a caster. There are some spells which give you spellcasters, which depending on your other magical abilities, could turn out to be a shortcut to a dispeller.

Another minor counter-tactic is casting a spell that prepares for death. BoT could save you some maintenance gold.

PvK

[ February 14, 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: PvK ]