Mines, Satellites and Fighters oh my!

[Echo Mirage]

I wanted to hear some of your opinions on the differences between these three units for wormhole defence?

I suppose you have a few things to consider:

- Cost (to research and to build)
- Cost (to maintain and re-supply)
- Flexibility (fighters are reactive and mobile, mines are cheap? satellites can be re-deployed.)

Any analysis would be greatly appreciated, I am yet a young Praetor in the Human Imperium, I could use some battle strategies and unti analysis!

Thanks!

[LostCommander]

I hope you find this helpful. First off, I have only played against AIs, no humans, so check out someone else's suggestions for multiplayer without team mode. Also, I play defensively.

Satellites: You get to start the game them! This is good since you can start production and deployment as soon as you are ready. Deploying them on your side of warp points makes them a nasty, close range surprise for all enemy ships and helps ensure that you can fire at them once or more, even if the enemy outrange you. They are also cheap (compared to fighters) and redeployable (as opposed to mines). Another thing to consider is that in tactical combat you can order them to not fire on a scouting vessel/fleet (other humans in a team-play game), unlike mines. Another bonus is that you can drop a couple sensor satellites into the group if you expect forces to enter through a different warp point or to detect cloaked vessels.

Mines: Very cheap for the amount of damage they do. Impossible for the enemy to detect. Along part of the same tech route towards troops which are invaluable. However, you have to replace them as they get used up and, when they are swept, you get no intel. as to what the enemy is packing. It can be a nasty surprise to suddenly find your field swept and much more advanced vessels attatcking than you were prepared to deal with. Also, to be useful, these generally need to be placed on warp points.

Fighters: EXPENSIVE... Most RP required of the three to access originally, and most minerals per unit. However, they can be a reactionary force, can be deployed from a carrier offensively, and they can MOVE. The ability to chase the enemy, or to run, can be very useful. Watch out for point defence weapons, but otherwise they rarely get hit and planetary bombers can help get past AI defences with all the satellites on one side (wich you can use tactical combat to make the "other" side so your fighters will not get shot) and missile platforms planetside. If heavy weapons are all that is targeting the fighters, split them up into tiny Groups (1-3) so that IF they get hit, you will not lose all of them. "Reach out and burn someone."

[Fyron]

All of those become useless given enough time in MP games. They can be useful against those that are not prepared for them (eg: someone only puts one PDC on each warship). Ample (2-3 per ship) PDCs will slaughter fighters and satellites easily, and Mine Sweepers are not very expensive. It is really easy to get enough to sweep 100 mines in a fleet (5 light cruisers with Sweeper IIs will do it). In the early game, these units are indeed useful, but they decline in strength steadily as the game progresses.

[Ragnarok]

Too bad MM doesn't make it so these items Last longer in the game. It would be enjoyable if they were useful in the late game. I know it is possible to do with a mod but I like to see it added to stock SEIV.

[Echo Mirage]

So then it seems to me that a mixed bag of satellites/fighters and mines would be the most effective.

As the game progresses spend less time/resources deploying these units and more time/resources building big *** ships!

[Slick]

Regarding:

- Cost (to maintain and re-supply)

No units have maintenance cost.

Supply is unlimited for all units except fighters (and drones, but we are not talking about drones). Fighter re-supply is free also, but it requires either going to a planet with a Resupply Depot (facility) or landing and relaunching the fighters on a carrier or planet without a Resupply Depot.

Slick

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Echo Mirage:
I wanted to hear some of your opinions on the differences between these three units for wormhole defence?

I suppose you have a few things to consider:

- Cost (to research and to build)
- Cost (to maintain and re-supply)
- Flexibility (fighters are reactive and mobile, mines are cheap? satellites can be re-deployed.)

Any analysis would be greatly appreciated, I am yet a young Praetor in the Human Imperium, I could use some battle strategies and unti analysis!

Thanks!

You start the game with satellites. The next two levels are pretty easy to research. Their construction cost is not very much. They are quite effective with the mounts given in the default game. If they could still be scattered in more than ONE frickin' group per location they'd be fantastic. It's just too easy for a ship to get away from a single stack of satellites. Other than this, they are quite good for warp point defense.

Mines are quite cheap to research and to build. The reason they are cheap to research is that there is no purpose to the second and third levels. Small mines are the best thing to use. Don't bother with medium and large mines. They always hit, so what matters is the efficiency of your resource usage. A mine cannot be 'partially' expended. It blows up for full damage no matter what the target is. Large mines end up 'wasting' damage because of the larger granularity of the damage allocated. Small mines do just as much damage but in smaller increments so less is wasted on 'overkill' with small ships. As of this Version of SE IV, there is no technology to make mines more (mine enhancements) or less (ship defense) effective so there are no disadvantages to offset the efficiency advantage of the smaller mines. In fact, the greater numbers of smaller mines are also an advantage against sweepers.

Fighters are indeed expensive to research. They are also more expensive than satellites to build. Their mobility and flexibility are quite excellent, though. They do run out of supplies eventually but a base full of fighter bays is pretty cheap to build. A combination of satellites and fighters is excellent. The fighters can pursue weak ships that try to run away, while the satellites provide heavier firepower to assist the fighters against any powerful ships that appear.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
All of those become useless given enough time in MP games. They can be useful against those that are not prepared for them (eg: someone only puts one PDC on each warship). Ample (2-3 per ship) PDCs will slaughter fighters and satellites easily, and Mine Sweepers are not very expensive. It is really easy to get enough to sweep 100 mines in a fleet (5 light cruisers with Sweeper IIs will do it). In the early game, these units are indeed useful, but they decline in strength steadily as the game progresses.

Good points, but something of an exaggeration.

If every enemy fleet needs to be able to sweep 100 mines, then you've got the enemy to invest and to concentrate forces.

If all of the enemy's ships have 2-3 PDC on them, that's a signifigant investment of space and resources.

If the fighters have high-tech shields on them, they can each absorb one or two PDC hits. It therefore starts to become possible to overcome PDC, also when combined with seekers and drones to also absorb PDC.

The reasons I would say it is an exaggeration to say these units become useless at higher tech levels, are:

1) They still get the enemy to deploy resources to counter them.
2) They cost zero maintenance, so if you've built up your fleet to your maintenance limit, they don't count against that important limit.
3) In large quantities, they can be quite powerful. A pile of satellites or fighters, stacked full of defenses and weapons, sitting on the right side of a warp point, can do a lot of damage, and can tip the scales of a battle.

PvK

[Q]

I agree with you PvK.
IMHO fighters and sats keep their use even in late games. The key point as you said is "large numbers". 50 fighters are completely useless against a fleet of 20 or 30 ships but if you have 1000 large fighters with shields in Groups of 30 or even 50 you have a tremendous firepower and won't loose too many fighters.
Sats are great as quick defense for warp points when you expand. Just move the sats with your sat layers to the new front line.
Minesweeping is however IMHO too cheap. There has been a topic about that some months ago and I increased the cost of the minesweeping components dramatically in my mod. And to make larger mines interesting I reduced the effect and the cloaking level of the smaller mines.

[ December 21, 2002, 05:49: Message edited by: Q ]