sabot rounds on 7TP

[Mario_Fr]

Polish tank units 451 and 459 (7TP) have sabot rounds in 1939. Is that correct? I always thought that the Germans were the first to use it in 1940.

Mario

[DRG]

If I still had my notes from 7 years ago I might be able to tell you exactly what it represents but I don't. What I do know is 9 years ago the 7TP did not have "sabot" and 7 years ago it did so it's not a mistake, it was deliberately added.

I will also draw your attention to MOBHack Help for information on "sabot" rounds

'Sabot' is just a name - the normal AP round can of course be an APDS or APFSDS round, with the sabot round perhaps representing a more advanced round - e.g. a DU APFSDS. Sabot is also used for Armour Piercing Composite Rigid (APCR) - Known in the USA as HVAP - or 'arrow' shot, of late WW2 vintage. These are basically similar to sabot rounds, but do not discard the sabot at the muzzle, so suffer from increased drag, somewhat like a ping pong ball with a steel core - they lose velocity and hence AP value rather quickly, but at close ranges are better than the plain AP shot.

so ammo in that column can be anything but regular AP

[Pibwl]

Definitely Poland had no improved AT rounds. There were used two types, APHE and AP-T, with similar weight and construction. Penetration 8 suggests some APCR, like German rounds. On the other hand, penetration of a basic round should be IMO improved - now it's 5, while according to a Polish source it penetrated vertical 60mm @ 300m (48mm @ 500 m) - seems it was slightly better, than Pak-35/36.

Michal

[Mario_Fr]

So what is that "sabot round" they have?

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

So what is that "sabot round" they have?

Something that they should not

[DRG]

Well if Blazej Ciepluch ever shows up on the forums again we can all ask him what it is as I'm fairly certain it was his addition.

I can take it out..... but --it was out---then it's in ---then it's out again--- style of OOB work really gets old after the third of fourth time around

ALSO there is a 37mm wz.36 L45 that is also on a L7P and it has 4AP pen... the 37mm wz.37 L45 has 5 AP pen and it's found on other L7Ps

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

I can take it out..... but --it was out---then it's in ---then it's out again--- style of OOB work really gets old after the third of fourth time around

Well, it's not my fault
I have never found any mention about works on APCR for Polish Bofors 37mm - and surely such things weren't issued. Maybe it's similar case, as these wishlist-super-guns in SPMBT. I'll take a closer look at the Polish OOB in several months, anyway.

Michal Derela

[Mobhack]

It was definitely added back in the DOS days due to lobbying from somebody, with data etc. Something tickles my lonely little brain cell about it.

The old conversations on the subject are probably somewhere buried deep in the obsolete Yahoo! discussion forums, but since I don't have a password for that any more I cant check it. (Nor would I want to troll through the old fluff there, I don't think it had a search function).

But as Don says, it is quite typical of OOB maintenance stuff, somebody randomly queries something done back in the prehistoric days and expects us to be able to instantly remember why the SDKFZ4321 has a left-handed cup holder fitted. Usually, our answer to that has to be along the lines of "we are just as clueless as you, mate"!.

Andy

[cbo]

IIRC "sabot" is sometimes used to represent rounds with very limited performance like the AP used in the French 37mm tank gun. Something about the performance of normal AP dropping off in a liniear fashion with range while sabot drops faster with range and thus is a better representation of a weak low velociy AP round that penetrates something at short range but not much at, say 500 meters.

Dont know if that is the reason?

The Germans were the first to use "sabot" in combat in the form of APCR in 1940, but experiments had been going on since the 1920ies, first with Gerlichs taper-bore hunting rifles, then with a cooperation between Larsen in Denmark, where Gerlich worked, and the French resulting in subcaliber rounds for the French 25mm anti-tank. Still experimental in 1940 and not issued, but IIRC the French shipped all their research to Britain and the US. Janacek in Czechslovakia also did some work on taper-bore guns, resulting in the Littlejohn adapter for the British 2-pdr later in the war. Don't know if the Poles ever worked on something similar, but they did experiment with some very powerfull rounds for their anti-tank rifles - IIRC they were full-caliber, though.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by cbo

IIRC "sabot" is sometimes used to represent rounds with very limited performance like the AP used in the French 37mm tank gun. Something about the performance of normal AP dropping off in a liniear fashion with range while sabot drops faster with range and thus is a better representation of a weak low velociy AP round that penetrates something at short range but not much at, say 500 meters.

Dont know if that is the reason?

The Germans were the first to use "sabot" in combat in the form of APCR in 1940, but experiments had been going on since the 1920ies, first with Gerlichs taper-bore hunting rifles, then with a cooperation between Larsen in Denmark, where Gerlich worked, and the French resulting in subcaliber rounds for the French 25mm anti-tank. Still experimental in 1940 and not issued, but IIRC the French shipped all their research to Britain and the US. Janacek in Czechslovakia also did some work on taper-bore guns, resulting in the Littlejohn adapter for the British 2-pdr later in the war. Don't know if the Poles ever worked on something similar, but they did experiment with some very powerfull rounds for their anti-tank rifles - IIRC they were full-caliber, though.

A sabot round in WW2 is usually an APCR. Its book muzzle AP value is higher than the plain shot, but the sabot range is less than the plain shot's so the pull-down for range will happen faster. Later better-designed APCR ammo can have a longer sabot range, but it still will be less than the AP range due to the "shuttlecock" effect of firing a full bore round with a "skirt" of lightweight metal that slows it down faster.

With APDS the opposite will be true. APDS drops the sabot rather than carrying it (and its wind resistance acting on a lighter shell) all the way to the target.

However a sabot round can cover other AP ammo, usually of a greater muzzle penetration than the regular round. However the French 37 shortie was a special case where the HE range was average, but a "sabot" round of limited range C/F the HE range was used to cover the poorly performing AP without slugging its primary role of putting out little HE shells. otherwise either the HE range would have had to be abysmal, or the AP round would over-perform due to its matching the main gun range (which is used for AP and HE).

Sabot ammo uses the sabot AP value, and the sabot range is used to determine the pull-down factor for range.

AP, HEAT and HE use the regular gun range, and for AP it is that range that is used for the pull-down factor.

SP 101 as explained in the Mobhack help, the effects can of course be seen by running APCalc for various weapons.

Andy