Engineers VS Fortifications

[Suhiir]

This thread is ment to get some discussion going on the subject.

We've all had to assault fortifications from time-to-time.

1) First any infantry unit has to pass a morale check.
2) Then the rule of thumb is (% chance of success = number of men in an infantry unit) (x2 if engineers).

Since most infantry squads are around 8-10 men, as are engineer squads this gives a 8-10% (or 16-20%) chance of a sucessful assault.

I'm wondering if engineer units should have a higher chance of success?

There's probably not much that could be easily done to increase their chance of passing the morale check (tho I've been giving engineer units a morale bonus for this, and other, reasons).

But they currently get double the chance for a sucessful assault. Don't get me wrong, this IS a significant advantage. But I'm wondering should it possibly be higher? x4 would (IMHO) be too much...but perhaps x3 would be reasonable as such units are normally specially trained and equiped for bunker busting.

Opinions?

[Imp]

I have no idea how it works (dont want to know) but if assault with a DC or suitable weapon assume it increases the chance.
From playing general note on how to assault bunkers.
Move adjacent any attack vs will not have a good chance as moving so do not assualt unless that units goal is to suppress. Depending on the situation if only moved one hex & the bunker is badly suppressed it may be worth risking an assault.
Really for a good chance of success start adj to it hit it with lots of firepower to suppress. Adjacent units can use the W key to select flamethrower or demo charge rather than assaulting. Now if that did not kill it esp if used FT the next attack has a very good chance of destroying it as probably routed or close to.
Doing it like this taking your time means 2 bunker busting type weapons DC FT etc will generally kill it, possibly one. Even if the bunker is very heavy & beyond your weapons capabilities you will start getting kill results on the men inside. It will soon fall but no need to wait just hit it hard & they will run out & surrender rather than wait for the next burst of flame to come through the slit.
The key is static or at the very max 1 hex move firer & suppressed damaged target, much like against a vehicle this improves your chances no end & a grenade can finnish the job.
Getting to eager & going for a kill attack before you are ready means its likely to fail so your unit is suppressed, if he is still suppressed next go thats another turn with a poor kill chance so do not assault it until its badly suppressed.
If you like think of as engineers make there way to bunker then takes them a few moments to get in position near a slit/entrance & send something through rather than a hasty lob.
Guessing on 2 attacks average to kill but not far off & helps presserve DC FT as you dont have loads, hope that helps

[RERomine]

In the age of modern weaponry, is an engineer the best option anymore?

[Imp]

No a tank can do the job most times or an RPG if talking later years.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Imp

No a tank can do the job most times or an RPG if talking later years.

That was my thought. By the time you get to about 1955, there are infantry AT weapons and tank guns capable of handling fortifications at something other than point blank range from the flanks or rear. The front is almost always vulnerable due to openings for weapons, but you also get shot at from those angles.

[Suhiir]

Everything said so far matches my observations as well.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post as I was specifically speaking of assulting fortifications not just how to destroy them.

Sorry bout that.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Everything said so far matches my observations as well.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post as I was specifically speaking of assulting fortifications not just how to destroy them.

Sorry bout that.

Actually, it was clear. We just kind of wandered off course

[Imp]

So going back to my previous post if it tries on its own will probably fail.

If however it gets a bit of support hence if you like disracting the occupants or preps with a DC FT its self first it will probably succeed.
If it starts the turn adj & the bunker is suppressed the assualt will probably work definetly if 2 units do unless roll snake eyes.

Therefore the % seems fine no prep work support is a disaster but a bit of planning & job done either by assault or possibly use of weapons before even need to. Any easier & there is little point having them IMHO
having said that I do hate spidy holes.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

So going back to my previous post if it tries on its own will probably fail..

And this is exactly why I brought the subject up.
I cannot speak for US Army, Russian, German, or anyone elses small unit tactics - but in the USMC we're taught that the average bunker can, and should, be assulted by a squad sized force.

Originally Posted by Imp

If it starts the turn adj & the bunker is suppressed the assualt will probably work definetly if 2 units do unless roll snake eyes.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I've never noticed that state of supression to have any effect at all on the chance of success of an assault.

[RERomine]

[quote=Suhiir;698988]

Originally Posted by Imp

Perhaps I'm wrong but I've never noticed that state of supression to have any effect at all on the chance of success of an assault.

I think the point is that the fortification is less likely to interfere with the assault, i.e. firing at the assaulting unit, if it's suppressed. If the fortification isn't defending itself, half of the battle is won.