IMPORTANT fixes, take 2

[john]

Since my previous thread went off on a tangent I'll try again.
I consider important the bugs that affect play balance in multiplayer. I.e. not AI being dumb.

1) Counter Intelligence was fixed in 1.42 but is Intelligence is probably still too powefull. Maybe changing it so any project will have a failure probability equal to how much CI was invested against it relative to it's cost.

2) Possibilities of abusing wormhole manipulation still exist (10 holes limit, surprise attack)

3) Generating supplies by way of starbases/fighters still exist, cannot reuse emergency supply pods without shipyard, but you can always bring one with you.

4) Very important IMO and mostly overlooked is the battle order being fixed by player ordering in game setup, so the same player always goes first in every battle, giving him a constant advantage, this is very unbalanced.

I hope the beta testers can point out these issues so they can be deal with in 1.43 .

[dmm]

Regarding wormholes:
I wonder if it would be possible to change the program (hard code change) so that they are created gradually. First they'd be small and unstable, not letting big ships through at all and doing damage to ships that pass through. Then they'd get to small and stable, then medium and unstable, then medium and stable, and so on. Each increase would require use of an "OpenWarpPoint" component. Similarly, any decrease would require use of a "CloseWarpPoint" component. This would still allow for small-scale surprise attacks, but would make it very difficult to launch a full assault using one's biggest ships. (Because to do the latter you would need to use 6 "OpenWarpPoint" components in 1 turn.) Plus, it wouldn't be so easy to close the warp point that you just launched your attack through, thus making you vulnerable to a counter-attack.

[Baron Munchausen]

#1 can be fixed, or at Last compensated for, by adjusting the 'Intelligence Defense Modifier' in settings.txt -- setting it higher will give the defender more ability to counter-act the attacker.

Intelligence Defense Modifier Percent := 120

#2 I agree that wormholes are a bit too quick to create and destroy. Even a single turn's delay would make this much more realistic. Add a new graphic image for a "forming/closing wormhole" and put a message in the log just like a naturally opening/closing wormhole. The same goes for many other stellar manipulations, you know. A planet should not just 'snap together' like an erector set. It ought to take a few turns to stabilize and be habitable. And even Star Destroyers ought to have a delay, though that would ruin the ultimate kamikaze tactic that so many people like to use them for.

#3 is not a problem. Packing a repair bay in a cruiser is not too difficult. Packing a space yard in a cruiser leaves room for nothing else. The price for the 'use emergency pods and then repair them' is far higher this way. Sure, you can have one ship with the space yard and it can repair the emergency pods on the other ships. That's what fleets are for, combining the resources and abilities of ships.

#4 is only a partial description of the real problem. The real problem is the "I go, you go" model of combat. This will always be unfair. Real time would be a pain in the ### to program and we purists would probably hate it. An 'impulse' based combat system where you plot out the movement of your ships and then let the next guy plot his before executing the turn looks to be the way to go. The turn would then be broken up into many smaller turns and ships would move or fire incrementally based on their 'initiative' as a whole and the 'initiative' of components such as individual weapon systems.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 20 September 2001).]

[Commander G2]

#4 A quick temporary fix to the movement and combat order problem would be to randomly determine the order of movement so that the players with low ordinal positions do not consistently have an advantage in movement and combat.

I am Last ordinal in a PBW game and it really hurts that I always fire Last when people come through warp points and I always fire Last when I come through warppoints. In races to defend planets they get wipped out before my ships get there.

Even an incremental system will be unfair if the lower ordinal players can fire first everytime in the first impulse. Warppoint defenses are key positions and who fires first is critical in those battles. It might be nice to have some sort of random inititive that can be modified by a racial trait (Initiative = Random 1-100 + Racial Attack Bonus + Highest Fleet Experience present). Maybe add +20 if defending a warp point.

If simultaneous movement is harder to resolve than simultaneous firing, another option would be to have 3 overall phases: 1) Combat before Movement, 2) Movement of ships in random order, 3) Combat after Movememnt for ships that did not fire in step 1.

Besides mattering when coming through warp points, first movement is also critical when pursing fleets. If you attack a fleet and come from the same sector you start on the same side of the map or the same corner. In that case first fire is also critical. Again, giving a lower ordinal player an advantage really ruins the competitive nature of the game.

I have not identified any advantages in simultaneous play in being higher in ordinal position, just disadvantages.

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

---

If simultaneous movement is harder to resolve than simultaneous firing, another option would be to have 3 overall phases: 1) Combat before Movement, 2) Movement of ships in random order, 3) Combat after Movememnt for ships that did not fire in step 1.

---

Make #3, "Combat after Movemement for ships with weapons that did not fire in step 1."

[Seik]

Satellites:

I wish MM would fix the positions of Sats in TacCom.
All Sats are in one field - it s easy to outmanouver them and attack the planet without the Sats can shoot at you.

I would be fine if the number of Sats are evenly splitted and put around the planet.

Then there is also no need to increase the range of Sats to strengthen the defense ones and if they can shoot at your ships not all of them can fire at one time.

[Seik]

Satellites:

I wish MM would fix the positions of Sats in TacCom.
All Sats are in one field - it s easy to outmanouver them and attack the planet without the Sats can shoot at you.

I would be fine if the number of Sats are evenly splitted and put around the planet.

Then there is also no need to increase the range of Sats to strengthen the defense ones and if they can shoot at your ships not all of them can fire at one time.

[Taqwus]

I could live with random ship-based initiative. It still feels pretty odd for an entire armada to act before the other one, since I always played MOO2 with ship initiative on...

On satellites... maybe if they got a combat movement of 1. That's not fast enough for them to chase ships around, usually... so it might not be that much of a problem. A better hack would be a free movement point between two squares adjacent to a planet or moon, which would require a weird bit of hardcoding.

One fix that would be nice, at least for those of us who aren't always genocidal conquerors, would be AIs that are more amenable to accepting gifts and clearly beneficial treaty upgrades (for instance, I'm not quite sure why an AI that's currently subjugated would refuse a trade treaty...).

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[HEMAN]

I agree Taqwus all the way,It still feels pretty odd for an entire armada to act before the other one.Maybe a idea like, maybe a componet say like overtruster or somthing, would give intiative to a single ships, and increase teck in this for more. This would make it more realistic?. A commit On satellites... maybe if they got a combat movement of 1. Reply; Sounds good, how about sats that move 1, but only around a object like planets moons etc.

[This message has been edited by HEMAN (edited 22 September 2001).]

[tesco samoa]

OR just place the sat's on top of the planet.

That way they can act from what ever direction the enemy is coming.

For movement.

I have no suggestions.

From a pbem perspective combat is flawed anyways.
I like the initive idea.
based on more than shipmovement.

Should be experience, surprise, location etc...
Kind of like the AD&D system or something
1 determine if any one is surprised first then figure out what bonus each gets based on this calculation then do the rest of the calculations.

Then do 2 every turn until the end of battle.

Or something like that.

------------------
L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+