Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)

NTJedi · #1 May 5th, 2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

RonD said:
Umbrals are now aquatic. Yet another reason to raise their cost.

Umbrals are very inexpensive and very powerful... now they are even more powerful. During singleplayer games these fellas are rarely summoned by the AI yet frequently summoned by human players.

Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe the developers made Umbrals even more powerful to give themselves a strong advantage during singleplayer games?

Post title changed pending split to separate thread

Edi · #2 May 5th, 2007, 01:49 PM

NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

Sombre · #3 May 5th, 2007, 03:14 PM

Even if they don't overpower Agartha, you could argue they make them unbalanced because Umbrals are that much better than everything else Agartha does. No balance within the nation,...?

Edi · #4 May 5th, 2007, 03:27 PM

That can be argued, but it is something that should be discussed in more detail. It is a matter of opinion, not directly a bug, so as far as I'm concerned, it is a nonissue at the moment.

quantum_mechani · #5 May 5th, 2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Sombre said:
Even if they don't overpower Agartha, you could argue they make them unbalanced because Umbrals are that much better than everything else Agartha does. No balance within the nation,...?

That's exactly the issue. I don't think Agatha for the most part is unbalanced, infact apart from LE they are rather weak. But Umbrals are simply tower above any other Agarthan national summon, and indeed almost any other summon in general. I don't think simply bumping up the gem cost is the best idea, rather they should be much higher research than the other summons to give them a real separate niche.

Meglobob · #6 May 5th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Edi said:
NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

In my experience of MP and I play alot of MP, Umbrals do not make the nation unbalanced. Indeed EA & MA Agartha seem to struggle in MP. I believe this to be because the nation takes a long time to get going and so suffers early on.

LA Agartha is a nation who can more than hold its own.

Quote:

NTJedi said:Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

They should definately not cost 8D gems. Perhaps a increase of 1 or 2 Deaths gems but no more.

RonD · #7 May 5th, 2007, 04:16 PM

We should move the balance discussion to a different thread.

Edi · #8 May 5th, 2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

RonD said:
We should move the balance discussion to a different thread.

I agree. *mutters powerful incantation*

There, that should do nicely...

Split from the Patch 3.08 sticky thread

NTJedi · #9 May 10th, 2007, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Edi said:
NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

In SP games the Umbrals are unbalanced mainly because the human player knows to mass summon these units whereas the AI does not mass summon these units.
From my MP experience I would say the Umbrals provide to great of an advantage now being amphibian as well. When playing Agartha and needing to summon units they are now the overwhelming obvious choice. These undead units are the most powerful and least expensive undead units based on a gem per gem and spell level basis. Their strength and high life allow their default weapon to be very powerful, their high life and good magic resistance makes banishment very difficult, their statistics and being stealthy and amphibious makes them very nasty on land and in the sea whether its a direct assault or stealthy backstab. The unit is not only powerful but an almost perfect do_everything package.

What I enjoy about Dominions is how a player has so many different strategy options, yet with these Umbrals being so powerful there's less strategy for Argatha as a whole whether its singleplayer or multiplayer.

MaxWilson · #10 May 5th, 2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

NTJedi said:
Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe so, but Gift of Reason will dominate the cost. Is a GoR'ed Umbral that much superior to a Black Servant? It's several times more expensive.

I venture no opinion on whether normal Umbrals are underpriced. Not enough experience with 'em, although this thread is inspiring me to try them out.

-Max