(OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

[PvK]

When playing a strategy game such as this one, do you prefer to know exactly what the rules, values, and formulas are that determine what happens during play?

Some players prefer to know what the formulas are, often so they can strategize against the game mechanics, and figure out the exact odds of success of failure in certain cases.

Some other players prefer not to know the exact formulas, for various reasons such as so that the mystery and illusion of reality Last longer, and/or so that players can't game the system and skill requires learning from experience how well different things work.

I'm also curious how many players prefer simple formulas to complex formulas for game mechanics. Do you prefer the movement system to be something like Movement = speed, or would you prefer something more like Movement = Inertia + Force(Friction)/(Vehicle.Mass + Crew.Mass + Cargo.Mass + Fuel.Mass) * Behavior(Driver.Skill, Driver.Caution, Traffic.Laws, Traffic.Density) * Terrain Modifiers * Weather Modifiers?

Similarly, some players may prefer to see actual data values for their units, equipment, terrain, and so on, so they can compare and choose the best of a type. Other players may prefer to be given vague and/or inaccurate estimates or descriptions, so there is uncertainty about how things will actually perform.

I'm posting this poll in each of several game forums, to try to get a feel for the opinions of the fans of different game types. If you like, you could take the poll in other games' forums. If you do, please answer what you would prefer for a game like the forum's game (which might or might not affect different people's answers. Someone might like simple game mechanics for one genre, but complex mechanics for another genre.)

PvK

[Kamog]

Well, the first few months I play a new game, I don't need to know all the formulas; I would like to just have fun and not go into all the details. Once I'm familiar with the game and played it several times through, I'd like to know all the formulas so I can optimize and tinker with designs and strategies.

[brianeyci]

Good exactly what I predicted. I fit right into the SE community lol.

Brian

[Suicide Junkie]

To me, lack of detail is associated with poor balancing.

The best possible balance is achieved when you can specify clearly and precisely what things do, and where players can and do win with widely differing choices.

Now, a lack of detail in items that you can't reproduce yet is quite reasonable.
However anything you do produce should have all the statistics you care to know about it. We aren't producing stone spears here, and if the factory can't tell me and guarantee to fine tolerances all the details, they won't be around very long.
Anything from fines and the loss of the build contract, to a "visit" from the elite stormtroopers, depending on your current government type.

Granted, giving me all the details without a summary is also a bad idea. Give me the range, damage, etc and any variance on each instead of making me keep a calculator beside my mouse

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In the big picture, lack of knowledge is fleeting. If you try to hide the details, players will slowly figure it out, and there will be a huge experience penalty to new players, regardless of their skill.

To level the playing field, either give everybody full information, or destroy the information advantage of the old hands by randomizing the tech tree and component values/strengths

[deccan]

I voted with the majority (and I voted in the one you made in the Dom2 board too), but I think the exception is if the ambiguity is part of the game design. I think that MOO3's original idea of Imperial Focus Points was quite cool, but it would have been a good rationale to prevent the player from knowing the exact details of some things unless he spent resources to know them.

[Randallw]

I've never given thought to such things as game formulas I think, however I am the sort of person who designs ships so they are built with as near as possible the number of resources usable each turn (but that's just good thinking)

[tesco samoa]

axis and allies is a classic example of what your posting pvk.

vs.

Reality.

[solops]

Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Yes.

[Suicide Junkie]

deccan said:
I voted with the majority (and I voted in the one you made in the Dom2 board too), but I think the exception is if the ambiguity is part of the game design. I think that MOO3's original idea of Imperial Focus Points was quite cool, but it would have been a good rationale to prevent the player from knowing the exact details of some things unless he spent resources to know them.

As long as the game lets you know the details of the ambiguity.

Don't say "DUC: does about 50 damage", when you could say "DUC: does 40-55 damage" (with linear/gaussian/etc probability curve)

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Focus points...
So many ways for that to go wrong.

You need to have both competent AIs, and AIs that can take orders without going insane.
You need to let them remember a priority list of your orders, and have them ask for clarification when things conflict.
And perhaps most importantly they need to be able to justify their actions to the player, and then adjust their priorities and values based on what the player orders.

Perhaps the focus points really should be used in a different way...
let the player adjust the sliders and generic orders all he wants: "Tell the governor of Arcturus that my flagship had better be done this month, or he'll be drinking his beer from the bottom of the lava mine on Hades II"

Instead, use the points for bringing in ministers for a personal tribute/talking-to/torture session. IE: give your AI's priorities and values a direct tweak so they will do better next time

You also need to let the player remain in control of everything... If they player orders something specific, it must remain that way.
If the AI wants to change something that the player did, they need to ask/beg first. And SAY WHY. If the player says no, then the AI had better increase its percieved value of leaving the setting as is. Ask again only if it is really important, and redouble the threshold every time the user says no.

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The question of Why would make a huge difference:
Consider if you had personally ordered a training facility built in a chokepoint system to help boost the troops as they arrived.

"Governor Joe wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
Heck, no! I built that for a reason, dummy!
...(Two Months Later)...
"Governor Joe REALLY wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
What? You again!? Grr, now I've gotta go and look at everything to see what's got you so upset. 50 lashes for wasting my time!

-or-

"Governor Joe wants to scrap your training facility at Algaran I because a higher-level training facility is under construction (2 months) near the resupply depot on Algaran II (Y/N)".
Ah, excellent work. Have a cookie!

Note that this isn't going to be easy.
The AI has to pick out just the new and/or major influencing factors in its decision, and decide which of those to present to the player in a sentence or two.
And you can't just try to maximize the number of "yes" responses. The minion needs to mention the big negative influences too, or it will be seen as manipulative and untrustworthy. A fair and balanced summary of why in a sentence or two is very hard.
Allowing a small chart/graphic/icon-map might help.

Hmm, this seems to have wandered really far off-topic.

[PvK]

Wandering in an interesting direction, though, SJ, and I can still see the trail from where you left the path.

PvK