VQ Counters - NO Debates

[Pirateiam]

Ok I grow tired of debating VQ balance issues. Please do not post any debates or opinions on balance issues. I only want lists and explanations of VQ counters - NO Flames. Just ideas and be somewhat specific. Please list whatever you think may work no matter how crazy. Here are a few I have been thinking about.

VQ Hit squad : 10 scouts (or best stealth unit available) with Herald Lances and 10 scouts with Justmans Crossbows (Set on fire at flying units). This squad could work behind lines and even though not kill her permanently it could harass her enough so she keeps an army with her and maybe slow down some expansion. You could add flying boots to make them more mobile.

Natahara VQ Killer: I am currently trying in SP a quickened Natahara with duel Justmans Crossbows. 2 shots per turn -set on fire at flying unit. Do not know if she will specifically pick out the VQ in a large battle. Still trying to set-up a live fire exercise

I know this does not tackle the Immortal domminion/castle building issues but I will let others look at that. Even if you have stated them earlier in post please re-state them so we can have complete list here for people to try out. Ok pour on your ideas and again Please PLease no debates.

[ May 05, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[Pirateiam]

I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged?

[rabelais]

Yes.

Teleporting in defending *armies* is possible, the pretender is no sweat.

[Pirateiam]

So... What you are saying if you had a Hunter team and a strike team you could possibly corner her in her capital.

Ok I have a rough idea but will have to come up with what units would be best to use. If you were to use my Hunter team to kill her then on the same turn Fly or teleport a large Undead Killing Army (heavy with priests and Herald lances) You could Kill her permantely. After being called back she comes back to the capital right? So as long as you hold the Ermor capital she possibly could be screwed. Time to fire up clash of titans map for two humans to try this out.

Does anyone have even a smaller map then Clash of Titans for testing purposes?

[ May 05, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[Pirateiam]

Could someone verify this. I am running some tests for VQ counters and I watched my VQ attack an independant. When I attacked I had 40 HPs but they raised all the way up to 62 by the end of the battle. Does Life Drain actually add on top of her hitpoints. I thought it just added only up to her normal full HP's.

[Norfleet]

There's basically two ways to go about the problem: Deliberately target the VQ and attempt to destroy it, or simply strike with sufficient force that the VQ is not equal to the task of defending against your attack.

If you want to deliberately kill the VQ, you have to put it down outside of its dominion, or jack the capitol. Capitol jacking is fairly straightforwards, but odds are that the VQ, as the most potent item available to the nation, will certainly try to attend. We'll cover this in the next chapter. You can attempt to kill the VQ in actual combat, which can be rather difficult, or you can try to kill it OUT of combat, which can be easier: The VQ is a physically fragile chassis without its buffing spells.

Killing it in combat can be done either by rushing, as the VQ is a poor fighter without its buffing spells up, or by targetting its weaknesses and using anti-SC spells: As undead, they're susceptible to accurate anti-undead spells like Solar Rays, which can be cast either by your mages, or by herald lancers. Drain life and petrify are other good choices: Drain life will inflict 100-precision damage upon the VQ, and fatigue it at the same time: As the VQ flies, it will invariably outrun most chaff and be in front, and thus be targetted first. Petrify instantly paralyzes any target and cannot be resisted. Once paralyzed, you can put it down with either attacks from units that can survive its damage shields, point-blank arrowing or bolting from archers, preferrably with fire arrows, or with more drain lifes.

Alternatively, you could just rush it in a dogpile of fliers: As the VQ is a flying creature, it can be specifically targetted through the use of "Attack fliers". If you are on defense, your fliers will immediately launch to attack, before the VQ has an opportunity to even cast anything: It'll have maybe 50-odd hitpoints, only a mediocre defense skill, and its only real defense will be etherealness, that you can counter with either flying, fire-9 blessed troops which will tear apart any VQ that doesn't have fire immunity, Caelumian ice lances, or brute force.

All of these methods will allow you to put a VQ down in combat at little loss: At least one of them will be available to most nations, either via summoning, boosting by items, or national troops + a bless strategy.

You may also try to kill it OUT of combat. This option may be available to you if you are attacked and your army is not adequately prepared and gets destroyed: The VQ will be sitting in enemy dominion, and can thus be killed: Fire a barrage of seeking arrows or other assassination spells that do NOT involve combats. The VQ is a fragile chassis, with a mere 23 base HP, and unless it arrived from strong enemy dominion, will not be too high above this: A hail of seeking arrows stands a good chance of putting it down for real. Even if it is armored, seeking arrows inflict armor-piercing damage. If it's wearing robes of missile protection, it won't be as susceptible to Seeking Arrows, but you can use a different spell, such as Fires from Afar, or simply compensate by using enough arrows to overwhelm even that.

The alternative strategy is that you strike only in one place, always accompanied by a kill team, either your own SC, as many pretender chassis are more physically powerful, and when also tweaked for battle, will easily defeat a VQ in single combat. If your chosen chassis flies, this will make singling out the VQ for duelling easier, as you can attack fliers yourself. If your SC has a shorter buffing sequence, you also can catch the enemy before it has finished deploying its own defenses.

Even if you constantly fight in enemy dominion, and as a result, the enemy constantly respawns, this does not matter: He will simply be defeated over and over, forced back to the capitol, and continually lose ground. Of course, once YOU control the castle, build your own temple there and wipe out his dominion, so he won't be able to annoy you there anymore. Remember: The objective of this approach is to take ground, hold it, and replace the enemy dominion with yours to assimilate the territory. If you can take his capitol in such a manner, you've put an end to the problem.

Please note: if the enemy VQ is repeatedly thrashing you without you even KILLING it, then you have far, FAR bigger problems! Your complete and utter failure to even HARM an ethereal, well-equipped SC chassis is *NOT* a problem of the VQ: The Ghost King is very much similar, has a superior base def which would make hitting it even HARDER, and if you are NOT KILLING YOUR OPPONENT, the fact that his chassis is a VQ and immortal is NOT at fault. If you can kill these kinds of SCs reliably, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality and endless respawns or not. If it respawns and comes at you again, it will die again. If you cannot kill them however, then you have bigger problems, and the fact that the enemy is immortal simply won't come into play: If the game ends with the VQ having a flawless death record, having never even USED the immortality....then YOU HAVE FAILED.

[ May 05, 2004, 07:33: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[sergex]

Well, part of your VQ strategy must involve conquering her domain. Start off with as high a domain as possible (8-10). Restless Worshipers. Sceptics, Monks, Stealthy Prophet, etc, to lower her domain in her own provinces. Preach like crazy all over the place, build juggernauts, stone idols on scouts, whatever you can do to mess up her domain.

Only then can you begin the work of ridding the world of her (for at least a couple turns). Make her route and have no provinces for her retreat to. Send in many, many seeking arrows into the province she is in. Earth Attack and send horrors.

To deal with actual combat with her? First of all, use a unit that is immune to lifetap. Undead units work well. Banelords, Wraithlords. Then gear them up, get them exp to raise their stats. Give them Astral Shields, Fire shields, Elf Banes, Mage Banes, anti-undead weapons.

There are many ways to skin the cat, but none of them come in the early game, and unless you control the domain of the game then all you are doing is trading your gems and income to make it return to its home province.

[Daynarr]

Fire 9 blessing is good counter (as mentioned by Norfleet) against VQ. Most nations have enough affordable holy troops that can be blessed to do fire damage that will ignore her etherealness and protection.

For example, Moloch is both great SC chassis and counter for VQ due to his blessing effect. You can equip with pair of armor negating/piercing weapons and, if you can afford, pendant of luck and/or boots of speed and tell him to attack fliers. He will engage VQ on turn one and should be able to kill her before she buffs her self (unless you are extremely unlucky).

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by sergex:
Well, part of your VQ strategy must involve conquering her domain. Start off with as high a domain as possible (8-10). Restless Worshipers.

Restless Worshipers may not be a good idea, since it involves Turmoil scale. Turmoil=bad for business.

[Pirateiam]

Thanks guys so far for the feedback. I have a 2 human SP game set up where I am trying different tactics to Kill the VQ. So far I have had little success with Herald Lances. 10 scouts with Herald Lances did not even scratch her and I tried this 4 times. I think the flying dog pile before she is buffed is more viable.

I like the idea of jacking the capital. Can anyone give some ideas on how to jack the capital. Once you have Ermor's capital she has to come to you.