Help! Need some strategy advice in my game...

[LintMan]

Howdy,

I'm looking for some strategy/tactics advice for how to handle the situation I'm in, in my current game...

Embarassingly, I'm still playing the "Walkthru" game I started in the demo, 2 full weeks after having receieved my full Version. (Why? ...It's a long story*)

Anyway, I'm in a pretty good position in many ways, but I'm getting my butt kicked in battle by Pangaea and I'm not sure how to counter it.

If you're unfamiliar with the Walkthru game:
I'm playing Jotunheim, with Son of Niefel 8W, 4E.
If I understand it correctly, my dominion's cold scale is set to 0, so I'm actually at a fair disadvantage economically. Is that correct - Jotuns have some penalties at anything besides Cold 2?

I'm currently at around turn 51, and control aproximately the right third of the map (Aran), plus most of the oceans, and have eliminated Ulm and Machaka, and am seiging Pythium, who only has 2 other remaining provinces. My nation is ranked first on all charts (Pangaea in second, Abyssia third) except as a fairly distant second to Pangaea for army size.

My land border was entirely shared with Pangaea, in a peaceful fashion, up until my Frost Brand/Lucky Coin-equipped Herse killed Pangaea's Cyclops god in combat in the deathmatch Arena.

Pan took offense to killing their god (that they stupidly entered into the deathmatch), declared war, and it's been downhill since.

My problem is that Pangaea's armies are proving far, far tougher opponents to my giants than Ulm's, Machaka's, or Pythiums ever did. Perhaps it's because they are so large, but even accounting for that, it seems like my front line of spearmen takes far more losses than his front line of satyrs, revelers and militia does.

For example, Pan attacked a province I had pumped up to 22 pd. Pan had 2 commanders, and 76 units including a few harpies and a mass of experienced satyrs, militia, and revelers. My army totalled 22 Jotun miltia, 1 hurler, 1 hearse, and 1 jarl.

My miltia hit his mass of satyrs and revelers, and stared dropping like flies while making virtually no dent in his forces. I certainly expected to lose, but the end result was my entire army being destroyed except for 5 militia managing to escape. His losses? Just a mere 10 units total, mostly harpies.

In other battles, where I've had a mix of Jotun spearmen, some assorted summons (ie: vine ogres and water elementals), assorted cheapish undead, and more leaders, have proven to be either nearly as costly in defeat, or almost pyrrhic in victory.

I think that if I was to just start cranking out masses of giants I might be able to prevail, but the provinces in the disputed area are extremely low on supplies. I have a number of endless wines, but not enought to even enable my entire existing forces to combine in one province, nevermind any masses of new Jotuns I cranked out. But using giants as mass fodder strikes me as quite extremely inefficient and the wrong way to go about things.

Obviously, I need to adjust my balance of forces to counter Pan batter, but I'm not sure what I need to do...

Hence, this post looking for suggestions about how best to counter Pan. I feel like I'm in good shape and I *should* be winning, without such attrition, if I knew how to better apply my resources.

Here's my resources:
Income: 1700, Upkeep: 800
Research points available: 323 (but many used to summon/forge/site search/etc)
Gems:
F: 17 +8
A: 15 +9
E: 23 +17
W: 62 +10 (not including some clam income)
S: 62 +13
D: 18 +18
N: 13 +12
B: 3 +1 (from a site, I'm not doing any hunting)

Spells:
Conj: 7 Alt: 4
Evoc: 4 Const: 6
Ench: 4 Thau: 4
Blood: 2

Only 2 mages currently travel with my armies (they haven't proved necessary there previously). The majority of my mages are sages and Vaetii hags, with a maybe a total of 4 each Skratti and Gygjas. I also just summoned a Coatl, which I just empowered +1S up to 4S/3N. (I'm planning to summon a harbinger, and would love to summon an angelic host). Lastly, I have two spectral mages (2D/1N, 1S/2D).

My prophet, Hgne the Gode, has heroic protection +7 (to 18), +4 Holy, and 3 exp stars. He is currently commited to leading the pythium siege and hasn't been involved in the Pangaea war.

In the battles with Pan, I noticed that the group of independent archers I had actually managed to inflict more casualties in one attack than my front line spearmen did. This makes me think it's a potential tactic, but I have a lot of trouble positioning those archers to be at all effective, or even getting them just not to rush into melee and get wiped out. Worse, Jotun seems exceptionally weak on ranged attack in its native units... Hurlers stink, and I haven't had much luck with Javelinists as ranged units (they usually immediately close on their targets to melee, and when they do throw, they usually miss by a mile).

None of my frontline forts have independent archers of any sort available, so I either need to build them in a distant province and slowly march them over, or I'd have to build new forts overlapping my other ones (ugh - pricey, slow, and would kill my production at both!)

I've got Gift of Health researched, but no mage to cast it (the Coatl was my hope, but surprised me in that it only has misc slots, so I'd have to empower it and I don't have the nature gems to spare). Any easier way for the Jotuns to get a 5N nature mage? My second best Nature mage is a 1S/1D/3N/1B Gygja with a Thistle Mace.

So, any ideas? Will any other Jotun units fare substantially better against Pan's masses than my Spearmen (with a few huskarl and javelinists) have been?

Thanks!
-LintMan


* If you really wonder why I'm still I'm still only at turn 51 of my first real game after playing it for 3 weeks, it's because I don't get much actual playing time, and because I detoured and spent a week experimenting and trying things out just to get a feel for them, without playing seriously, before I decided to return to my Walkthru game in progress.

I'll start with the easiest first. The easiest way to get a GoH caster is to keep making Gyg's and hope for a 3 Nature (with randoms), have your Couatl forge yourself a Moonvine Bracelet, then forge yourself a Treelord Staff when you have someone with (4N). I wouldn't use a couatl for the casting, as he would require you to empower then use a bracelet.

Next portion. I don't know why you are having such a problem with Pan unless it's because you are getting swarmed (sounds like it). Try using a bunch of indep HI to fill up the spaces with the Giants. 1 human sized (size 2) HI per Giant. This will fill up alot of the holes and let your giants Last longer, it will also cause less routs. (Make sure you put them in the same squad as the giants in order to make the squad size count for your morale)

If you are having issues with your giants losing morale and running on you, try forging and putting on commanders Horns of Valor (1N).

Another Idea would be to make some Jarl stompers. With your gem income it shouldn't be an issue at all to buy yourself 6-10 Niefel Jarls (make this your primary objective) and forge them some equipment. Try:

Wraith Sword (10D)
Flying Boots (5A)
Pendant of Luck (5S)
Horror Helm (5D) (Or if you really want to be spendy, Wraith Crown (40D))
Ring of Regeneration (10N)
Whatever Armor is good. You could try Hydra Armor (Gives Regen) and replace your Ring of Regen above with a Antimagic Amulet.

Put your Jarls on "Quickness, Blessing, Breath of Winter, Attack Rear" and have them fight in teams of 2. Flying and raiding and jumping. Have at least 1 or 2 in your main army if you feel the need.

Hope that helps. Believe me you have alot of options, that is just the easiest in my mind to turn the game a little more to your advantage.

Edit: I didn't see any blood slaves. But if you want you can make Blood Thorns (20B) instead of Wraith Swords, then throw a Shield on your Jarls. Good ones might include: Eye Shield, Charcoal Shield, Lucky Coin (which would free you up another misc slot).

[ March 21, 2004, 06:28: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by LintMan:
I've got Gift of Health researched, but no mage to cast it (the Coatl was my hope, but surprised me in that it only has misc slots, so I'd have to empower it and I don't have the nature gems to spare). Any easier way for the Jotuns to get a 5N nature mage? My second best Nature mage is a 1S/1D/3N/1B Gygja with a Thistle Mace.

Gift of Health would do great, but as you said, you can't spare the nature gems: Casting a proper GoH is gonna run you at least 200+ nature gems. You could cast it baseline level, only 40 gems, but it's definitely not going to stick: At that stage in the game, the AI will likely overwrite it with some crappy thing of their own inside of 3 turns. If it's not worth doing properly, it's not worth doing at all.

Jotuns are also cowards, despite what their supposedly better-than-average morale would have you believe: They regularly run before any of them have even died. In addition to the Horns of Valor that Zen suggested, Herald Lances on your commanders will help even more. Having both at once, plus a Gode casting Sermon of Courage over and over, will help a lot.

Combine all this with what Zen suggested, and you should be able turn the tables on Pan.

[Endoperez]

As you have noticed, Giants are awesome troops: they can kill almost any opposing units with one hit. Unfortunately, they are easily swarmed... If a unit is hit more than two (I think) times in one combat round his defense starts decreasing with every hit after that. The decrease only affects one combat round, but unfortunately it is often enough...

As giants are not useful versus masses you should try making other troops. Archers of any kind are wonderful versus enemies with low protection, but shields protect from missiles. Regardless, buy archers. Crossbowmen are really better versus tough troops, and as they fire only every other round normal archers are more useful in your situation.
You need some troops to protect your archers. Your province defense does quite well, but you have to get some smaller troops too. I quess you get Vaetti (vaetti hag atleast), so buy them. One giant and two vaettis can fit on one block (units worth 6 sizes can fit on one block, press g to see grid in battles). While Vaetti may die, they have shields to help them survive your archers and every hit killing Vaetti spares one giant. You might try amassing just vaetti and/or archers for a few turns.
If you have limited archers and wish to keep them alive you can either make them to Fire and Flee (though they would only shoot for three rounds) or have all commanders die/rout when your front line has died. You would need many commanders though...

There are quite a few spells that do very well versus masses of light units. The one that comes to my mind is earth spell Blade Wind at evoc. 4. You might not be able to cast it, but if you have any Earth-2 mage you can make Earth Boots to get your mage to required Earth-3. Also, remember to cast Earth Power in battle! It helps to lessen fatique, lets your Earth-2 mages cast Blade Wind and gives reinvigoration (removes fatique). In fact, you can make any Earht-sage to cast Blade Wind with few gems: Earth Power first (needs 2E or 1E+gem), Blade Wind second (needs 3E or 2E+gem).

There is a miscellanous item "Moonvine bracelet" that needs Nature and Astral and boosts one of them. I don't remember which one, but you could check it... Other than that, I think Vine King (or whatever he is) has Nature-3 and can wield items. I am not sure, though, so check it first... Any way, you could summon one, give him Thistle Mace (and Dwarven hammer if you have one), forge Staff of the Treelord (I think it needs Const. 6, Nature 4. It gives Nature+2). With that your Vine King can cast GoH. There propably is a cheaper way too, but I don't remember any...

Also, if you can make Fire Shields en masse you could do recruit lots of Jarls or Herses and give them shields. Put them to the frontline with some normal troops and watch the cheapies burn themnselves to death! This gets even more powerful after you get GoH. You can try other useful items too... Flying shoes are great, better armor would be nice (especially Chain mail of Displacement), regeneration helps but you should save those Nature gems for GoH.

Others have propably posted most of these things by now... Well, hopefully there is something useful in here.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
As giants are not useful versus masses you should try making other troops. Archers of any kind are wonderful versus enemies with low protection, but shields protect from missiles.

Yes: Archers are especially good when the enemy outnumbers you with swarms of low-prot troops, such as Pangaea: The more outnumbered you are, the harder it is to miss.

I quess you get Vaetti (vaetti hag atleast), so buy them. One giant and two vaettis can fit on one block (units worth 6 sizes can fit on one block, press g to see grid in battles). While Vaetti may die, they have shields to help them survive your archers and every hit killing Vaetti spares one giant.

That won't help him. Walkthru is Niefelheim, no Vaetti. Niefel doesn't get anything that isn't giant-sized as a national troop.

[ March 21, 2004, 06:45: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Zurai]

I use Winter Wolves to fill in the gaps with Niefelheim (Mainly cause I almost always do Niefelheim with a Son of Neifel pretender and thus have more winter wolves than I know what to do with), but it takes practice to group them so that they end up mixed together at the enemy since they're different speeds. You could also try Longdeads.

[LintMan]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

I quess you get Vaetti (vaetti hag atleast), so buy them. One giant and two vaettis can fit on one block (units worth 6 sizes can fit on one block, press g to see grid in battles). While Vaetti may die, they have shields to help them survive your archers and every hit killing Vaetti spares one giant.

That won't help him. Walkthru is Niefelheim, no Vaetti. Niefel doesn't get anything that isn't giant-sized as a national troop.

---

Actually, I don't think it's Niefelheim - I'm not sure what the theme is , but I've got Vaetti, Vaetti Hags, Wolf and Moose Riders, and Chiefs. My captial-only units are Woodsman and Gygja.

Some follow up questions/comments for everyone:

My pretender can build 12 clockwork horrors for 12E, and/or 13 Claymen for 5E. (Clockwork horrors are fast, 5hp, 18 prot, while Claymen are slow, 15hp, regen, 6 prot) Would either of these serve as a superior "fill in the gaps" role instead of Winter Wolves or masses of Vaetti? (IIRC, I only get 5 Winter Wolves at a time, vs 12-13 constructs).

I've also forge a number of "Bottle of Living Water" water elemental summoning items in the hopes of having some "free" good shock troops in every battle. Are these worth it over, say building swords of swiftness/boots of quickness/blue scale mail/clam of pearls at the same cost?

Also, in Arryn's AAR, she mentioned the effectiveness of forging sceptres of authority for her priests... I'm starting to do this as well, but was wondering if it would also be worthwhile to construct some of the assorted magic bows/crossbows available (Thunder Bow, Just Man's Cross, Ethereal Crossbow, Longbow of accuracy, Black Bow, etc)

Would Call of the Wild and/or Call of the winds be useful for stealing some of Pan's presumably unguarded rear provinces?

Zen: my Jarls have no magic paths, just 2 Holy, so I don't know how they'd cast quickness and Breath of Winter (maybe that's a Niefel theme ability?)

Endoperez: I'm not sure about fire shields - the best I have is a sage empowered to 2F, and I don't see that item on the list of things he can forge.

Thanks everyone for all the tips. Alas that it's now almost 4AM here and I have to wait until tomorrow night to try any of them out!

I thought that the walkthrough was Niefelheim, but I may be mistaken, I have never played it.

If it's not Niefelheim, you can turn Bane Lords into Stompers.

Bane Lord (10N)

Wraith Sword (or Blood Thorn)
Jade Armor (1E1W)
Flying Boots
Antimagic Amulet
Luck Amulet
Then for a hat you can use a Horror Helm or Wraith Crown.

Or you can put it on your normal Jarls, thought they will be slightly fatigued until they start cutting into units. Just depends.

I'd just use Vaetti to fill the gaps if you wanted. Clockwork horrors are a bad pick in my opinion since they run down so quick, unless you can chaincast Relief. If you can't, try using Mechanical Men to fill the gaps.

Edit: The reason I prefer stompers, is because they are highly manuverable, can take out armies by themselves or in pairs (no worries about moving massive armies or getting mages to command undead/magic beings) and can be switched from offense to defense on the drop of a dime. It's certainly not for everyone, just how I prefer.

[ March 21, 2004, 09:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Zurai]

Or you can do Longdeads Or if you have Conjuration high enough and a high enough Death caster, Ghosts. Ghosts mixed in with giants is just mean.

As for Winter Wolves vs clockworks: I prefer Winter Wolves because it's fairly easy to get them with Jotunheim and it can be extremely difficult to get enough earth to pump out earth summons. 3W is simple to get - your pretender has it (in the walkthrough, anyway) and Skrattis start with 2W and 1?, so you can either forge a Water Bracelet or get lucky. Also at 3W in the conjuration school is Sea King's Court, which is a very good summon; you get a Sea King, who is a 3W mage who generates his own water gems for battle casting, and 15 Sea Trolls. One Sea King's Court is enough to take over most independant water provinces, and don't forget the Sea King can cast Contact Sea Troll for another troll for 1 water gem (or contact another Court for another 45 gems) to refill his stock.

Other good summons... Pale Riders is nice, 20 Longdead Horse for 30 gems... Summon Ghosts is very nice, 1 ghost per point in death for less than 10 gems... any of the reanimation spells cast by Jotunheim will return about 1/4 or 1/5 Longdead/Souless Jotuns, which are pretty potent. If you can get a 3N Gygja you can forge a Treelord's Staff (well, have to forge a Thistle Mace first) and cast Summon Ivy King, then give the staff to him and get 5 Moss Ogres per turn for 1 nature gem. If you get Angerboda the Great Hag as a hero, forge her a Starshine Skullcap and she can make Rings of Sorcery and Rings of Wizardry, plus summon the powerful Astral summons.

Another good way to kill hordes of weak units as a nation with decent Death magic is to create a few Behemoths - they're mindless undead elephants, size 6 tramplers that WON'T rout (which is a rarity for tramplers... usually they take a couple hits then rout and trample your own troops). If you can get 5 or so Behemoths to your front line, they'll quite happily crush your opponent's satyrs and minotaurs to goo. They even have somewhat decent magic resist and good hp, so they're hard to Banish.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zurai:
Another good way to kill hordes of weak units as a nation with decent Death magic is to create a few Behemoths - they're mindless undead elephants, size 6 tramplers that WON'T rout (which is a rarity for tramplers... usually they take a couple hits then rout and trample your own troops). If you can get 5 or so Behemoths to your front line, they'll quite happily crush your opponent's satyrs and minotaurs to goo. They even have somewhat decent magic resist and good hp, so they're hard to Banish.

Zurai is correct that Behemoths will happily trample and crush Pangaea units in great numbers, and that they will not rout, but Behemoths are NOT mindless. This distinction is important when facing, say, R'lyeh: Behemoths AREN'T mindless and CAN be bLasted. Also, should your commander bite it, the Behemoths, not being mindless, will retreat, rather than dissolve.