Diplomacy woes...again...1.19

Talenn · #1 December 25th, 2000, 06:25 AM

Ok, the AI is definately more hostile, but there are still ALOT of problems with Diplomacy in SE4 IMO.

As I've posted before, there are no penalties for reneging on an agreement or for simply ignoring a message. Fine. That can be handled by simply manually responding to every message and always following through on your agreements to break treaties etc.

Unfortunately, the OPPOSITE is also true. The AI will tell you that they will break their treaty with another race, but then never do. I've had them agree to declare war on another race, but then they remain in 'Partnership' with them forever. Wtf? Requests for 'help with an enemy' are cheerfully agreed to, but again, they 1) never lift a finger to attack and 2) they dont even break their treaties with the offending race.

So, overall, I'm beginning to conclude that Diplomacy is completely broken. There is no sense in having alliances and military treaties or whatnot if they do nothing but generate points. It seems that their is no connection between what a race agrees to in diplomacy and how they actually conduct themselves.

IMO, this kind of stuff should be top priority for the next upgrades. The immersion factor of the game is totally destroyed by bugs or omissions such as these. There is no feeling of 'Alliance' or coalitions at all...just economic trading partners, nothing more. And that means the game is pretty much reduced to combat and fighting it out. There is no sense in trying to forge alliances and cultivate diplomacy if it does absolutely no good at all.

Has anyone actually been able to get an AI ally to break off treaties with others and/or get them to attack an empire that you requested them too?

Talenn

[This message has been edited by Talenn (edited 25 December 2000).]

AAshbery76 · #2 December 25th, 2000, 08:19 PM

I agree 100% i said this when the game first came out.The roleplaying side suffers greatly for this reason alone and should be sorted quick time.

eagleton · #3 December 26th, 2000, 01:31 AM

I got AI-allies to do what I wanted several times, yet only those who were much weaker than me and were depending on my force. I got them to break treaties, declare war on my enemies and even fight - yet often they soon made treaties with my enemies again, then I would demand that they break the treaty, which they would do. This could go on for quite a long time (concerning races were the Krill and the Xi'Chung)...

Noble713 · #4 December 26th, 2000, 02:10 AM

In one of my recent games, I asked the Toltayans (Brotherly Partnership) to break their Trade Alliance with the Drushocka. I checked the Treaty Grid a turn or two later, and was quite suprised to find that they had done so. A little while later I asked them to support me against the Drushocka (or declare war on them, I forget now) and they did. I don't know if they were actually fighting, but the Treaty Grid said they were at war.

I think the Diplomacy works when it wants to, which unfortunately isn't often enough. The above example is one of the few where it actually has, so the underlying diplomatic capabilities are there, they just need some tweaking to make them work on a more regular basis.

Talenn · #5 December 26th, 2000, 06:20 AM

Noble:

Hehe, when you are 'quite surprised' when the AI actually follows through on an agreement I think that means there is something wrong.

It should at least honor it's agreements. I wouldnt care if it didnt AGREE to the breakoff, but once it does, it should happen.

Eagleton:

Did you actually check the Treaty status? I've had them agree plenty of times but the treaty status remains unchanged. I was pretty happy with the diplomacy until I actually starting checking that and seeing that anything they agreed to wasnt being done...whats the point?

Talenn

Seawolf · #6 December 27th, 2000, 08:47 PM

Hey guys just a point,

If diplomacy was a science how many wars would not have been fought in the past 100 years?

MM is working on diplmacy, no idea how high on the list but hey consider how hard it must be to code,

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

Freyland · #7 December 27th, 2000, 09:00 PM

Another point: when a race asks/demands you break relations with another race, and you agree, the game should either automatically break those bonds, or prompt you with an "are you sure" window. As it is, I have been agreeing regularly, only to realize I still had treaties and everyone was satisfied with me!

Jonathan

Atrocities · #8 December 27th, 2000, 09:38 PM

You know, it would be nice to have a Demenour (sp) choice when sending Messages. That way, when you send a message, instead of pleading, neutral, or Demanding, you could have:
Polite
Rude
Condecending
Patornizing
Friendly
Hostile
Upset

and so on

I would use Upset in a message stating my displeasure over the recipant blowing up one of my scout ships or something. See my point?

It gets more personal this way, and ya, adds a few extra steps to sending a message, but with a default setting of Friendly, you will never have to worry about offending by accident.

AAshbery76 · #9 December 28th, 2000, 02:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Seawolf:
Hey guys just a point,

If diplomacy was a science how many wars would not have been fought in the past 100 years?

MM is working on diplmacy, no idea how high on the list but hey consider how hard it must be to code,

Surely diplomacy should of been sorted out at the first instance, its a major part of the game. Again playing today i asked a empire to stop a treaty they agreed but on the treatys grid they still had the treaty.
Another bug ive found is when you go to ask
a empire to remove ships from a system,when its goes to what system you want them to remove its blank.

Nyx · #10 December 28th, 2000, 02:05 AM

Some of these issues oversimplify the situation. Let's say that you demand your ally make peace with a third race and they agree to do so. What if the third race is unwilling to end the war? Should your ally be forced to surrender if that is the only peace the third party is willing to accept?

Or what about this scenario: Most of us move first in single player games. What if you demand the Krill make peace with the Abbidon, and in their turn they do so. Then the Abbidon go and declare war again on the Krill. When it comes around to your turn you'd think the Krill agreed to your terms and then never acted on them.

Enforced diplomacy can have all kinds of negative side effects too. Like when one player chooses a permanent effect in return for a temporary one. For example, give me some technology and I'll give you a peace treaty. Then right after I receive your technology I declare war on you again. Is this any better a situation? Do you honestly think the AI can handle this level of diplomacy?