Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available

[dogscoff]

I installed the new AI files posted recently and the Druks have started sending new-generation Dreadnoughts against me. They are ridiculously hard to kill now.

PvK, I have noticed that on the design screen some obselete components still show up even when better Versions have been researched. So far I have noticed this with solar collectors and temporal weapons. Is this deliberate or is it an error?

[oleg]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I installed the new AI files posted recently and the Druks have started sending new-generation Dreadnoughts against me. They are ridiculously hard to kill now.

PvK, I have noticed that on the design screen some obselete components still show up even when better Versions have been researched. So far I have noticed this with solar collectors and temporal weapons. Is this deliberate or is it an error?

Glad you like them

As to obsolete components - it is an artefact of PvK' desire to keep existing games compatiable with new Versions: If you insert a new component into old components.txt file, it will srew up existing designs completely. But if you add the new component at the end of file, SE does not group it with old but now separated components.

I sincerely hope that very soon PvK will release a brand new Version (3.0 ?)that will clean up this mess

[ February 20, 2003, 15:21: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

There are also a few things that aren't really obsolete, which are that way on purpose, but ya, the order is a little mixed up to allow upgrading old games.

PvK

[PvK]

As for massive fighter stacks (unfortunately not moddable away) and large weapon mounts, yes as I said, these are good against armored shells. For the large weapons it's intentional, and makes perfect sense. But even for the fighter stacks, it's not really a balance problem except perhaps against the AI, which isn't programmed to realize how to counter it.

100 fighters in a stack may be able to dwarf the emissive ability of an armored shell, but it also forces the fighters to fire one giant shot at once. This will be a disadvantage if the enemy has fighters in smaller Groups, because the 100-stack will only be able to fire at one enemy group per turn, wasting any excess firepower, while incoming fire against the stack won't waste any firepower until the very end.

Moreover, as oleg mentioned, small ships remain viable throughout the game - a squadron of smaller ships with lighter weapons can often evade the less accurate big-mounted capital ship weapons.

Which is not to say that every ship should have an armored shell against all opponents. The whole point is that there are choices with trade-offs, and not just "X is better than anything else in all ways", moreso, I think, than in the unmodded game.

As for hulks with only structure remaining, that can certainly happen, tough it's pretty varied how ships take damage, and depends on the armor and the weapons used and, with armored structure, a lot on chance. Usually the armor pretty effectively protects the useful components, but sometimes the components get nailed before armor. Usually it's a mix.

PvK

[Talenn]

Hey PvK, et al:

I've been using a modified Version of Proportions 2.5.3. So far, I like it a lot. You've put a lot of time and effort into this mod and it really shows. I had been hunting for a mod to use as basis for a mod of my own and Proportions seems to work out really well for it.

For my mod, I've sped up colonization a little and I've added in some components and whatnot from a few other mods (mostly from Devnull). I've also added in a number of 'human-only' items that we can use in multiplayer games, but that I dont want to have to worry about the AI getting tripped up by.

One thing that I've noticed in Proportions is how good of a buy the Torpedo Techs are. They are cheap to research and do a lot of 'up front' damage which, in keeping with your discussion below, seems key. Given the way the tech cost progression increases geometrically and how the bulk of an empire's research points are coming from the Homeworld (and thus, available at start), it seems that the 10000 point cost makes Torps an obvious choice. You can have Torpedo IV (a powerful weapon) for less cost that of level III in a number of other weapons and the progression only gets worse the higher it goes.

The lower 'startup costs' seem key in this mod because your research points arent increasing at the same rate as the costs for higher level techs (ie, a lot of the research points are 'front-loaded'). I've modded in a negative on the Torp's accuracy to compensate. This leaves them with the feeling of capital ship killers (along with their high damage numbers which is good for punching through emissive effects) but prevents them from being the obvious choice in the early game. Has anyone else noticed Torps as a good buy or is everyone just used to them being useless in the basic tech set and not really bothered with them?

Is there some updated listing of how emissive armor works now? I remember threads on it ages ago, but I'm sure they are outdated with the newer patches. Do emissive effects stack or is it only the highest...ie, if I have 2 Armored Hulls (11 Emissive each), do I have 22 total? Does it stack from different component (ie, 1 Armored Structure giving 1 + the Hull giving 11 = 12?)? I also wasnt aware that Emissive effects were 'global'. I was under the impression that the Emissive component had to be 'hit' for the damage reduction to apply. Has this been thoroughly tested and confirmed?

Thanx for any input/answers on the above!

Talenn

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by PvK:
There are also a few things that aren't really obsolete, which are that way on purpose, but ya, the order is a little mixed up to allow upgrading old games.

PvK

I'm willing to start a new game the moment you post the 3.0.
So don't wait for nobody. I have become a faithful follower of your mod.

By the way, do you think its ok that Sats are actualy bigger than fighters?

[Aloofi]

Yes!
Great idea! How it didn't occurred to me before?
I'll erase the Ice and Gas planets with Oxigen to simulate that Rock people need Domes in those planets. Since I always play Rock/Oxigen it'll be perfect.
Humm, I have to check first that none of the existing races is Ice or Gas/Oxigen..........
And as a side effect any AI race that is "Rock/ none Oxigen" will still capable of fully colonizing Ice and Gas as a bonus.

[Fyron]

By the way, do you think its ok that Sats are actualy bigger than fighters?

First off, the Kiloton in SE4 is an abstract and arbitrary unit that means nothing. All that it does is allow for a relative system of how much you can put in each vehicle. Different vehicle types are not really on the same scale.

Second, these are not like satellites we have launched into space. They are more like small automated space stations. So, being larger than fighters makes some sense.

[ February 21, 2003, 00:43: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Puke]

[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

First off, the Kiloton in SE4 is an abstract and arbitrary unit that means nothing. All that it does is allow for a relative system of how much you can put in each vehicle. Different vehicle types are not really on the same scale.

I have gone through great pains in GritTech, to make SE4 Kilo-Tons meaningful. I believe that I have met with a good deal of success. many of these efforts were inspired by the Porportions mod. I would guess that PvK wishes the KT representation in his mod to be something more than meaninless and arbitrary.

[Fyron]

Well, kT are not changed much in Proportions, so they are as meaningless there as in the normal game.