Anomaly reports

[Mobhack]

Yep - just because a line infantry element is ~4 men does not necessarily mean that it gets the size 0 bonus. That is usually reserved for scouts (ie those who don't want to shoot, as a rule). An "assault" team of 4-5 that is primarily there to jump off their Spartans and fight might not have it since they are not in the "stealth" business. (Forex, USSR units #346-348 should be size 1 as they are such, not recce).

But there will be variations to the design guidelines all over the place - since they are that, not laws. In the end it is up to the OOB designer to design his OOB, and for the points calculator to decide each element's worth.

So - OOB designer Bloggs may decide that in his Rastafarian OOB, a 2xgun SFMG section element(used in one formation) will have speed 5, and the singleton SFMG element used in inf coy HQ support platoon will have speed 6 to keep up with the grunts - maybe there are more men in the singleton, to carry the bits faster.

For most things, it is neither here nor there if the 81mm mortar crews (forex) have one or two variation in crew from the guideline, or whatever. All provided they fit in the supplied transports, of course !. A couple more men means they may survive longer if subject to C/B fire, and will cost a point or two more than in some other OOB.

OOB designers do not produce blow-by-blow design documents (Those were usual in SP1 days when there were only about, what?, 100 possible units in a national OOB - and some like the Romanians had less since they shared an OOB file with someone). We do have replies in deeply buried emails from folks who did their OOB their way, but it's difficult to keep track of. However, the old line by line essay that you got in SP1 days is long gone, since quite frankly it would be a complete PITA to keep in synch if (say) we published such a tome for each and every OOB.

We have been bitten several times back in the days when we had OOB design teams of volunteers, when some of these went through the OOB set "rationalising" things and "applying the rulez" in a rigid and formulaic mechanistic manner. (Like reducing the carry capacity of the M321X APC in the Rasta OOB to 11 because "that was what all the others are"- but the OOB designer had deliberately upped it to cater for the one 12 man squad available 1957-59 without having to jump through hoops with different formations).

Adjusting the carry of APCs is quite allowable, especially if it saves umpteen new formations and a rewritten pick list etc.

So - a run through like this is fine, as a pointer to things that look like they may need investigating. We will look at these reports, and decide whether or not the points are valid or not to need fixing. But please do not expect a blow-by-blow return replying to each and every line item, and whether or not we decided to fix it as suggested.

Cheers
Andy

[Richard_H]

Utter standardisation of everything is the last thing on my mind (remember what I was like a few years back about "spotter plane syndrome"? )) There will be far too many people out there, with individual country knowledge that is far greater than mine, who have made individual adjustments/variations for very good reasons, The problem with the approach I've adopted is that it will most likely pick up the difference but not, of course, why it's occurred. That's why input like Suhiir's is so valuable.

This is why I deliberately called the thread "anomaly reports". An anomaly isn't an error, it's just something different from the norm, for whatever reason. I did suggest the odd change earlier on, if only because some things seem obvious when looking at raw data. But I'm trying now to stick to the provision of information, pure & simple.

Andy, thanks for the encouragement, I'll see the exercise through (there are times I wonder what started it off & whatever it was, can I kill it? :>)))) I certainly don't expect a line-by-line response - if the whole exercise only throws up a couple of "needs fixing" to improve an already superb game, it's been worth it.

Richard H

[Mobhack]

If you feel up to the task - then by all means carry on...

Remember to knock off at beer o'clock from time to time though!.

If it finds a few items, then it'll be worth the while.

Cheers
Andy

[Richard_H]

Lol - yes there are days when I wonder why the hell I started, but to be honest, a discipline like this prevents beer o'clock from starting waaay too early! It's one of the problems of being retired on a small island (Malta), there isn't a whole load to keep one occupied. I know, it's still nearly 70 degrees & there's always the sea to watch, where's the problem?

Onwards and upwards - infantry.

Class 1 – Infantry

France 126 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
China 286 & 314-319 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
Dare I mention the ‘C’ word? Canada 81, 82, 85 & 86 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Denmark 253 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 225, 226, 462 & 463 have 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
S.Africa 43 has 10 Weapon 3 & 10 Weapon 4 (both Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
Croatia 66 has 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Nigeria 410 has 9 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Sweden 98 & 103 have 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Kenya 402-405 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Belgium 94 (Crew 10) runs concurrently with 95 (Crew 8). Neither is a template unit, nor are they X3 radio coded.
Algeria 362 (Crew 10) runs until 12/74. Other Algerian units have Crew 8 from 1/69. It is a template unit, but only for formations running to 12/68.


Class 40 – Heavy Infantry

Switzerland 295-297 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

China 635 & 636 have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.
NVA 116-118 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Canada 64 & 65 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Denmark 264 and E.Germany 98-100 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Switzerland 119 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.
Switzerland 120, 302-308 & 519 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 11 Crew.

Poland 323 (Crew 10) runs until 12/87. Other Polish units have Crew 8 from 1/80. It is not a template or X3-coded unit.
Czech 323 is similar to Poland 323.
Switzerland 295-298 are 9-man, non-template units that run concurrently with some of the other 11-man units.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

More infantry

Class 51 – Light Infantry

Afghanistan 415-417 and Ethiopia 417 have Load Cost 25, others have 0. They are also Size 2 and have Sound 222, even though they are dismounted.

Afghanistan 415 & 417 and Denmark 262 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Afghanistan 416 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Netherlands 205 & 206 have 12 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Netherlands 207 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 5 Crew.
Canada 92, 93, 96 & 97 have 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Canada 94 & 98 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 216 & 218 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.
W.Germany 214 & 215 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
W.Germany 212 has 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Austria 200 has 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Viet Cong 265 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.


Class 55 – HQ

Viet Cong 244 & 245 have 4 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

Japan 245 and Switzerland 244 & 245 also have ‘odd numbers’ of grenades but along with Switzerland 243, they are the only units to carry a third weapon. From what has been done with the Swiss oob, I suspect detailed in-country knowledge.


Class 64 – Medium Infantry

Nigeria 565 & 566 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

ARVN 215 has 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Canada 104 has 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Denmark 263 has 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
W.Germany 600-603 have 18 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.

Nigeria has 2 9-man (565 & 566) and 2 3-man (462 & 463) units running concurrently. 565 is a template unit, but none is X3 coded. A human will know which to pick for the different formations, but what about the AI?


Class 65 – LMG Section

China 350-355 have Speed 5, all others have 6 (even with 2 LMG & 4 Crew).

China 350-355, Cuba 540-543 and Rhodesia 24 have FC and Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0. My understanding is that this only applies to MMG & HMG.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Yet more infantry.

Class 66 – SMG Section

Norway 182 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0. It also has Speed 5, others have 6 or 7.


Class 67 – Rifle Section

Algeria 352 (Crew 10) runs partly concurrently with 353 (Crew 8). The units are similarly armed, although they have different radio chances.


Class 160 – Reserve Infantry

Poland 882 & 883 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
China 424-426 have 20 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.
N.Korea 360-364 and Cambodia 360 & 362 have 12 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 9 Crew.
Taiwan 330 has 24 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 10 Crew.
Canada 436 & 437 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.
Yugoslavia 84 has 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 7 Crew.
Sweden 480 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew. Postwar rationing maybe.
Sweden 481 & 483 have 10 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 12 Crew.

Yugoslavia 86 (Crew 10) runs until 12/65, partly concurrently with 2 7-man units (84 & 87). It is not a template unit, and is not X3 coded.


Class 161 – Reserve Support

Norway 169-172 have Speed 5, all others have 6.


Class 226 – COIN Heavy Infantry

Rhodesia 30 has Speed 8, standard is 6 or 7. It also has 10 men, and runs concurrently with 190 & 191, which are both 5-man units. None of them is X3-coded.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 2 – Infantry AT

57mm M18 RCL – Green 102 is Size 1, all others are 0.
France 113, Green 102 & Thailand 70 have Crew 3, Mujahadeen 174 has 4, all others have 2. Green 102 also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Lebanon 117 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 174 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Brazil 102 & Thailand 70 have FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

75mm M20 RCL – Japan 143, Green 103, Chile 103, Lebanon 118 and Indonesia 105 & 107 are Size 1, which leaves a small majority as Size 0. Having used one of these in the Obong-Ni Ridge scenario, I’d want to be Size 0!
Green 103 has Crew 3, France 114 & Mujahadeen 176 have 4, all others have 2.
Lebanon 118 has Speed 3, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 176 has Load Cost 1, Viet Cong 63 (Type 56) has 2, all others have 0.
Brazil 103 has FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

90mm M67 RCL – Green 104 has Size 1 & Crew 3, Mujahadeen 179 has Crew 4, all others have 0/2.
Mujahadeen 179 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Portugal 72 has FC & Rangefinder 1, all others have 0/0.

Alcotan 100 – Spain 472 has a typo, the weapon has the correct name.

Apilas – Taiwan 484 has FC & Rangefinder 0/0, others have 3/1.

AT-3 Sagger – Viet Cong 69 has FC & Rangefinder 1, others have 0/0.

AT4 LAW – UK 236 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

B-10 82mm RCL – Mujahadeen 177 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Uganda 111 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Mujahadeen 177 & Eritrea 111 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Boyes ATR – Sudan 320 has Size 1, all others have 0.

Carl Gustav 84mm – Green 108 has Crew 3, all others have 2.
Denmark 315 & 316 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0. They also have FC 1 and Rangefinder 1 (see below).
W.Germany 199 and Malaysia 183 & 184 have FC & Rangefinder 1, India 306 & 307, S.Yemen 323 & 324 and N.Yemen 325 have 2, all others have 0/0.
Spain 471, Italy 449 & Austria 60 have RoF 6, all others have 7.

Dragon ATGM – Iran 379 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Instalaza M65 – Uruguay 97 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

LAW-80 – UK 223 has RoF 6, others (in other classes) have 7.

LRAC F1 – Cyprus 215 has RoF 6, all others have 7.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Mujahadeen 172 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Indonesia 100 has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Egypt 107 & ARVN 200 have RoF 6, others have 7.

M20 Super Bazooka – Mujahadeen 173 has 4 Crew, Gulf 321 has 3, all others have 2.
Denmark 311 and Indonesia 101 & 102 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

M72 LAW – Green 105 has Crew 3, Nigeria 111 has 4, all others have 2.
Nigeria 498 has Speed 4, all others have 6.
Denmark 312 & 313 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

M79 Osa – Yugoslavia 208 has Size 0, Croatia 208 has Size 1.

Metis ATGW – Chechnya 21 & 22 have Crew 3, all others have 2.

Milan – Belgium 77 & 78 have Speed 5, all others have 6. They also have RoF 5, all others have 4.

Panzerfaust 3 – Japan 153 has Crew 3 & Speed 4, all others have 2/6.
Japan 153 has RoF 4, Netherlands 186, S.Korea 484 & Italy 448 have 7, all others have 6.

Panzerfaust 44 – W.Germany 205 has RoF 6, Italy 447 has 7.

Panzerschreck – Romania 290 has Crew 2 & Speed 6, Bulgaria 280 has Crew 3 & Speed 7. Standard from WW2 appears to be the same as the Romanian figures.

PIAT – Denmark 310 has Crew 3, Malaysia 180 has 4, all others have 2. Denmark 310 also has Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
Egypt 106 & Jordan 178 have RoF 6, all others have 7.

PTRD ATR – Mujahadeen 169 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

RPG-2 – Red 22 has Crew 3, all others have 2. It also has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Mozambique 463 has RoF 8, all others have 7.

RPG-7 – Green 106, Red 24 & Chechnya 18 have Crew 3, Afghanistan 177 has 4, all others have 2. Red 24 & Chechnya 18 also have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Indonesia 103 & Rhodesia 100 have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.
S.Africa 56 & 57 have RoF 9, Mozambique 485 has 8, all others have 7.
Mozambique 485 has 50 AP rounds for Weapon 1 (RPG), standard loadout is 6 HEAT.
PLO 151 (Nader) has Speed 5 & RoF 6, all others have 6/7.

RPG-7V – Czech 212 is Size 1, all others 0.
Green 107, Red 27 & Chechnya 20 have 3 Crew, Mujahadeen 181 & Afghan 178 have 4, all others have 2. Red 27 & Chechnya 20 also have 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
E.Germany 475, Green 107, Cuba 104 & Nicaragua 104 have RoF 7, all others have 6.

RPG-16 – Mujahadeen 168 & Afghanistan 179 have Crew 4, others have 2.

RPG-18 – Afghanistan 180 has Crew 4, all others have 2.
Syria 218 & Greece 202 have RoF 6, standard for a RPG is 7.

Saghegh RPG – PLO 150 has RoF 6, others have 7.

SPG-9 – Mujahadeen 175 has Crew 4, all others have 2. It also has Load Cost, FC & Rangefinder 1, others have 0/0/0.

Type 56 RPG – Cambodia 287 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

Type 69 RPG – Cambodia 288 has Crew 3, all others have 2.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

More infantry AT in various guises.

Class 142 – Para Infantry AT

All the UK (386, 387, 392-399, 402, 410) and Thai (402-407) units have a Swim Speed. I’m not sure I’d fancy a dip with 15 kilos of Vigilant on my back . . . . . .

UK 392-399 have 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds with 2 Crew.

Israel 530 and Indonesian units (542-545) have Load Cost 1, all others have 0.

Belgium 544 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.

57mm M18 RCL – France 316 has Crew 3, standard is 2. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

75mm M20 RCL – France 317 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

AT-4 Fagot – Russia 693 has Crew 2, standard is 3.

Blindicide 83mm – Belgium 546 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

Carl Gustav – UK 396 & 397 and Malaysia 360 & 361 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

Dragon ATGW – Thailand 406 & 407 have Size 0 & RoF 9, standards are 1/4.

Javelin – UK 386 has Size 1, others have 0.
Australia 500 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Egypt 221 & Indonesia 543 have RoF 6, standard is 7.

M20 Super Bazooka – Israel 525 & Thailand 403 have Crew 3, Belgium 545 has 4, standard is 2.
Thailand 403 has RoF 9, Indonesia 542 & 544 have 6, standard is 7.
Thailand 403 has 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

M72 LAW – Thailand 404 & 405 have Crew 3, standard is 2. They also have RoF 9 (standard is 7) and 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds
Argentina 488 has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 2 Crew.

Metis ATGW – E.Germany 473 has Crew 3, standard is 2. It also has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Milan – Belgium 547 & 548 have Speed 5 & RoF 5, standard is 6/4. They also have 8 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.

RPG-2 – Russia 456 has RoF 4, standard is 7.

RPG-7 – Russia 457 has RoF 4, standard is 7.

RPG-7V – Russia 458 has RoF 4, E.Germany 472 has 7, standard is 6.

RPG-16 – Ukraine 463 has Crew 3, standard is 2.

Spike – Israel 530 has 2 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 3 Crew.


Class 146 – Commando Infantry AT

Belgium 504 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 4 Crew.

Javelin – Australia 527 has RoF 9, standard is 4.

M9/M9A1 Bazooka – Norway 438 has Crew 4, standard is 2.

M20 Bazooka – USA 966 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

Molotov – Green 590 has RoF 6, other Molotov teams (in other classes) have 9.

RPG-7V – E.Germany 469 has RoF 7, standard is 6.


Class 165 – Ski Infantry AT

France 382-384 & 402 have RoF 9, standard for all is 7.

Carl Gustav 84mm – Sweden 169 has Crew 3, Sweden 170-173 have 4, standard is 2.

M79 Osa – Croatia 210 has Size 1, standard in other classes is 0.

PIAT – Norway 440 has Crew 3, standard is 2.

Satchel Charge – Sweden 148 has RoF 9, standard in other classes is 4.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Infantry RCL Teams.

Class 208 – Infantry RR Team

India 316, Cyprus 211, Saudi 330-332 & Bulgaria 289-291 have Size 1, standard for all is 0.

Angola 540 & 541, Saudi 330-332, S.Yemen 330 & 331 and Bulgaria 290 have Load Cost 1, standard for all is 0.

Czech 373, S.Yemen 330 & 331, Rhodesia 205 & Tanzania 100 have FC & Rangefinder 1/1, Tanzania 101 has 2/2, standard for all is 0/0.

57mm M18 – Cambodia 68 & Saudi 330 have Crew 3, Iran 440 & USMC 72 have 4, all others have 2.
Iran 440 & Norway 49 have Speed 4, all others have 6.

75mm M20 – Rhodesia 205 has Crew 3, Iran 441 & USMC 73 have 4, all others have 2.
Rhodesia 205 has Speed 3, Tanzania 100 has 4, all others have 6.
Type 56 derivative – NVA 445, Pakistan 311 & Sudan 330 have Crew 2, China 69, N.Korea 71 and Cambodia 70 & 71 have 4.

90mm M67 – Iran 442 has Crew 4, all others have 2.

B-10 – Poland 68 & Bulgaria 289 have Crew 3, Russia 586, N.Korea 68, Angola 541 & S.Yemen 331 have 4, all others have 2.
S.Yemen 331 has Speed 3, all others have 6.
Derivatives – China 70 & 71 and Tanzania 101 have Crew 4, Sudan 331 has 2.

Nader – Iran 443 has RoF 6, standard is 7.

PF-98 – China 72 has Crew 4, China 396 (Class 2) has 2.

SPG-9 – Poland 70, Russia 587, S.Yemen 330 and Bulgaria 290 & 291 have Crew 3, N.Korea 70 and Angola 540 have 4, all others have 2.
Russia 587 & S.Yemen 330 have Speed 4, all others have 6.

SPG-82 – Czech 373 has Speed 3, all others have 6.


Class 209 = Para RR Team

USA 267-269 have Crew 3, standard for all is 2.

SPG-9 – Russia 474 and Hungary 486 & 487 have Crew 3, standard is 2.
Poland 486 & Russia 474 have Speed 4, standard is 6.

[Pats]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

Switzerland 295-297 have Speed 7, all others have 6.

Richard H

Agree, should be speed 6 (typo)