Mod: CBM 1.7 released

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I think same can be made for SDRs and hammers, so for example all my future games will have a 20 pieces cap per nation rule.

If I understand correctly, and based on what I know with how the Artefacts game was setup. Limiting nations to a specific number of items can be modded (rather than use house rules) by giving each nation X starting commanders (who are immobile and die on turn 2) each equipped with whatever item you are limiting. With X being the number you want. And making the item unique (or Const 12) so they can't be re-forged.

My limited modding knowledge means I'm not sure if this has to be modded via map commands though, which might prevent it being an actual mod. (although nations starting commanders can be changed using a mod, so maybe commanders can be added as well, unless there is a hard limit of two)

[WraithLord]

Sounds great
Any idea where to start looking for how to get it done?

And come to think of it, 20 is too much, even for a large game. 5 makes more sense if the idea is to keep it for flavor only. It will also allow nations not to go out of their way in order to get those hammers. The only difference from 1 is that it's less drastic so instead of turn off the lights they are just dimmed.

[Redeyes]

What's people's opinion on the different pretender prices?

... I'm thinking of the classic pretenders like Moloch, Prince of Death, liches, and Cyclops that I think aren't seen often enough now, as well as some high priced nationals like the Risen Oracle.

[Dimaz]

IMO the whole point of hammers and SDRs is investment, so the idea of adding them at the start sounds really strange to me. In fact, I certainly prefer removing them completely than adding them at the start, as it will only make you scratch your head trying to utilize them most so rushing const will be even more top-priority than with vanilla hammers. Again, as i said, in fact I see no problem with vanilla DH at all, other than few individuals trying to promote their playstyle for everyone else. SDRs are a bit too cheap for what they do OTOH.

[Aethyr]

Originally Posted by Valerius

If you'd like to add gem gens back into the game I'd suggest using gem generating summons rather than magic items, since monster modding is much more robust than item modding. Some of the advantages:

Differentiation & Limitation: one of the problems with clams is that anyone could (and did) make them so they didn't just benefit the nations that needed them and that they were forged in quantities only limited by the game engine. If you go to a summons based system using unique national summons you could say, for example, that Jotunheim gets 1 unique gem generating summon, while Bandar Log gets 4. Or you could vary the income per summon so that nations that needed gem gens got more out of their summons. You could also generate gems other than S/E/F in order to better match the character of a nation.

You could also vary the cost/research level of obtaining gem gens. A weak nation might be able to obtain their first gem gen summon at a low research level/cost while a more powerful nation will not be able to obtain any gem generating summons until much later/at a higher cost.

Valerius, this is a really cool idea.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Valerius

If you'd like to add gem gens back into the game I'd suggest using gem generating summons rather than magic items, since monster modding is much more robust than item modding. Some of the advantages:

Differentiation & Limitation: one of the problems with clams is that anyone could (and did) make them so they didn't just benefit the nations that needed them and that they were forged in quantities only limited by the game engine. If you go to a summons based system using unique national summons you could say, for example, that Jotunheim gets 1 unique gem generating summon, while Bandar Log gets 4. Or you could vary the income per summon so that nations that needed gem gens got more out of their summons. You could also generate gems other than S/E/F in order to better match the character of a nation.

You could also vary the cost/research level of obtaining gem gens. A weak nation might be able to obtain their first gem gen summon at a low research level/cost while a more powerful nation will not be able to obtain any gem generating summons until much later/at a higher cost.

Gem generating summons sound an interesting idea in the 'investment strategy' area of the game. But I think the only way they'd work is if each nation was given X national uniques as a way of limiting them. As I doubt house rules (the same as house rules for items) to limit their numbers would work due to genuine player counting errors, and intentional rule bending (plus all the other reasons TheConway pointed out).

And right now 10+ unique summons for each nation will likely overshoot the mod spell limits by quite a way (until the next patch comes out at least).

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Originally Posted by WraithLord

Sounds great
Any idea where to start looking for how to get it done?

No idea sorry. I'm waiting until all my current games are finished before venturing into modding. (as I do have a few mod plans if I can find the time and patience)

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Originally Posted by Dimaz

IMO the whole point of hammers and SDRs is investment, so the idea of adding them at the start sounds really strange to me. In fact, I certainly prefer removing them completely than adding them at the start, as it will only make you scratch your head trying to utilize them most so rushing const will be even more top-priority than with vanilla hammers. Again, as i said, in fact I see no problem with vanilla DH at all, other than few individuals trying to promote their playstyle for everyone else. SDRs are a bit too cheap for what they do OTOH.

X number of Hammers from turn 1 might not fit that well into the 'investment strategy' area of the game, but it would still allow players to choose which gem type to use for maximum forging efficiency, and which type to allow some wastage with. Unique hammers removes that area of the game entirely (along with several others), so at least limited hammers would still allow some skill to remain.

Although the 'everyone rushes Construction' problem might be an unwanted drawback, but personally I think I'd still prefer limited hammers to no hammers. But I also think there is nothing at all wrong with Hammers to begin with, and I wasn't even aware anyone considered them a problem until this CBM version was released.


Right now I'm also firmly in the 'leave hammers alone' camp, at least until someone provides some truly creditable evidence to why they are bad. As the reasons I've heard so far for nerfing hammers is far from credible IMO, and seem more based on some players just not liking them, and/or not liking the extra thought required during design and play with regards acquiring them. In theory, I'm all for modding-out broken aspects of the game (such as unlimited gem gens), but not for modding-out things purely on the basis that someone doesn't like them. But I do accept of course that the owner of a mod is free to do whatever he or she likes. The same way everyone is free to use whatever mods he or she likes for in their games. So if you don't like the changes a recent version of your favourite mod(s) has made, then don't use it basically.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Dimaz

IMO the whole point of hammers and SDRs is investment, so the idea of adding them at the start sounds really strange to me. In fact, I certainly prefer removing them completely than adding them at the start, as it will only make you scratch your head trying to utilize them most so rushing const will be even more top-priority than with vanilla hammers. Again, as i said, in fact I see no problem with vanilla DH at all, other than few individuals trying to promote their playstyle for everyone else. SDRs are a bit too cheap for what they do OTOH.

Dimaz, I just caught myself after posting with the exact same thought. However, if I were to choose between infinite hammers and no hammers I'm no leaning towards no hammers.
Imagine for a 2nd that there were items giving conjuration/enchant bonus. Then what, everyone would be forced to forge them. So if everyone forges them then it's the same as if no one forges them but with less MM.
Nations that suffer greatly from no hammers need to be addressed by CBM.
I think I have come a full circle and now am more open to accept the unique hammer change.

[Aethyr]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Gem generating summons sound an interesting idea in the 'investment strategy' area of the game. But I think the only way they'd work is if each nation was given X national uniques as a way of limiting them. As I doubt house rules (the same as house rules for items) to limit their numbers would work due to genuine player counting errors, and intential rule bending (plus all the other reasons TheConway pointed out).

And right now 10+ unique summons for each nation will likely overshoot the mod spell limits by quite a way (until the next patch comes out at least).

This makes sense. I'm not a modder, so this may be a bad question, but would there be a way to limit the actual number of these "uniques" that could be "in play" at any one time for each nation?

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Aethyr

This makes sense. I'm not a modder, so this may be a bad question, but would there be a way to limit the actual number of these "uniques" that could be "in play" at any one time for each nation?

As far as I know, and I may well be wrong since my knowledge is limited, modding unique spells is limited to pinching and overwriting the unqiue spells from an already existing unique summom spell, as you can not 'create' a new unique summon spell.

I believe a lot of modders have used the Ashdod spells (for example) for their mod nations, since that nation is never allowed in most games anyway, so it's spell slot won't be getting used. But the Ashdod set of spells can only be used by one nation per game, (again I might be wrong with my knowledge of modding limits), which means it's currently not really possible to mod each nation to have a unqiue set of summon spells (unless it was a very small game, and all the other unique summons in the game were pinched and overwritten in order to get enough unique summon spells for everyone)

[llamabeast]

It's possible to add new spells that summon a particular unique unit. It's not possible to add new spells that summon one of a set (e.g. a version of Tartarian Gate, or the Ashdod unique summons). If you want one of a set then you have to overwrite another set like Calahan says.