OT-Black Company

[HoneyBadger]

Feist's "Faerie Tale" I also found enjoyable. It's set in the real world, not Midkemia.

The point where Feist became hopelessly unreadable to me was 'Merchant Prince'. I like to call it "fantasy accounting", and as far as I can tell, is basically some kind of wacko Midkemian corporate thriller, from the little bit I could stand to choke down.

[MaxWilson]

I liked the whole Serpentwar series (Shards of a Broken Crown was a pretty good climax to a tale you thought had already climaxed in Rage of a Demon King). There are things I have liked about the Talon books--starting fresh with new characters is always nice--but I couldn't even finish Flight of the Nighthawks.

-Max

[Aezeal]

Wrana: hahahaha

seriously in most your post I only see things you don't like except the black company and hobb and tolkien it seems..

I don't see why hobb is so much better than most writers you don't like.. I don't even see why it his books are "for those who like fantasy dark".

I can see why you'd like Tolkien better than some writers that where mentioned (Martin) but I just disagree.. on so many points Martin is better.

and if you dont'read the books I recommended it's your loss not mine.. maybe others will have some use for them though.

[nordlys]

Wrana said:
The girl who'd written Curse of Asure Bonds isn't bad, but her name slips me and it's not very good by itself.

Kate Novak. Along with Jeff Grubb.

Just not bland and not foolish, which is more than can be said about most "dice rolling" fantasy. It's also probably out of print by now.

Most people mistakenly treat gaming fiction as literature. It was never supposed to be one. Gaming fiction = in-character gaming accessory. Embrace this fact, and TSR novels become highly enjoyable, no matter how boring the stories, bland the characters and mediocre the writing are.

[Wrana]

Time to return to this dope...

HoneyBadger:
I can give you a very accurate list of the finest fantasy writers in the past 100 years, but I'm sad to say that not every one of them, at every given instance, is enormously readable. They're profound, deep, compelling, etc. but sometimes, yes, one just wants to escape, and not think all that terribly hard, while being taken on a tour of a world unlike our own ...
even enjoyed Jordan. They aren't they best thing that ever came down the pike, but on a given day they occupied my brain in ways beneficial.

Well, that's too bad. As I've said probably, I consider some books usually included in classics to be overrated - or having had their popularity based on situation in society at the time and not on their literary value...
And I also have read trash fantasy aplenty, but the 3 you mentioned are just too crappy for my palate. Maybe I'm spoiled for choice by having relatively much Russian trash fantasy at hand - many of which are of generally better quality, but unfortunately weren't (and won't be I think) translated into English. Also, there is always Robert Ervin Howard - and not only his fantasy, which I think isn't the best among his works...

And even if people are reading crappy fantasy, they're still reading, and it's still fantasy, and that's a good thing in my book.

I'm not so sure that it is much better than reading nothing - especially as you somehow consider a fantasy better in some obscure way than, say, SF. I don't know whether you have read "Silver Eggheads" by Fritz Leiber which was a warning against brain-munching reading, besides being a very funny and well-written book of its own. But if you didn't, look for it (if yes, just remember how he calls such products and how he descibes procedures used to craft and sell them).

Edi:
After the first book of Serpentwar, Feist's writing started to get seriously stale. I loved the original Riftwar saga and the Empire trilogy he cowrote with Janny Wurts (who is one of my favorite authors, though she can be pretty wordy sometimes).

I don't know, I've just seen very bland language, with any characters speaking the same. And it wasn't particularly original either... Don't remember which of the books this was - I just understood that he's generally not worth reading unless I have absolutely no other choice... Thank you for mentioning other authors - I'll probably make some sort of list from this discussion to look up those that might be interesting.

Xietor:
But I do take issue with your condemnation of Feist. Some of his work is not good(talonhawk stuff), but Jimmy the Hand was one of my favorite characters.

Maybe you take this issue further by arguing for him? Something like originality, quality of text-work, storyline-work... It would be appreciated. Understand, I'm not completely against "dice-rolling" fantasy - there are times when my brain won't absorb much , but even among these, Feist doesn't look particularly good.

Endoperez:
Tolkien helped make fantasy popular. He was one of the first. That means he made many mistakes that he would have been critized about had he not been one of the first popular ones. I think LotR could be written much better.

Agree. I also dislike his attitude on some questions. And you will probably agree that even in his times, many elements could be made better... actually I think that as a writer R.E. Howard was better - or would be if he lived to Prof. Tolkien's years.

It could be written worse, as well. Unfortunately, someone decided to prove it true and wrote LotR, worse. Warning: bad fantasy ahead!

Another example is Terry Brooks. He's not quite so obnoxious at it as he uses less copy-paste... but it remains copy-paste nonetheless, though he didn't repeat it all.

HoneyBadger : I like to call it "fantasy accounting"

Well, there is virtue in such. Just remember Asprin's MYTH Inc. series - though I prefer earlier ones which are more conventional fantasy... Another example is Lawrence Watt-Evans. It's just that Feist can't make it interesting...

Aezeal:
seriously in most your post I only see things you don't like except the black company and hobb and tolkien it seems..

You are wrong. I don't particularly like Tolkien.

I don't see why hobb is so much better than most writers you don't like.. I don't even see why it his books are "for those who like fantasy dark".

Well, what you don't see isn't my problem, is it? And Robin Hobb is a woman, by the way.

I can see why you'd like Tolkien better than some writers that where mentioned (Martin) but I just disagree.. on so many points Martin is better.

Such as?

and if you dont'read the books I recommended it's your loss not mine..

Well, actually it's my gain - I see who recommends which books and choose to not spend my time on those. I should probably thank you!

nordlys :
Kate Novak. Along with Jeff Grubb.

Thank you. Though I probably won't seek it out now anyways, but still thank you. Do you remember someone else from those T$R slaves actually worth some time?

Most people mistakenly treat gaming fiction as literature. It was never supposed to be one. Gaming fiction = in-character gaming accessory. Embrace this fact, and TSR novels become highly enjoyable, no matter how boring the stories, bland the characters and mediocre the writing are.

Well, it actually depends on what your palate can stand. And I personally am not interested in descriptions of the world badly thought out (read: Forgotten Realms ). And what interest can they really have? If they have all those "merits" you mentioned, the only thing which can be interesting are fantasy countries/cultures. But by the virtue of his/her talent (or lack thereof) your average storyhack just can't do juistice for them too! Also, a quality of "in-character gaming accessory" can also vary widely. Just compare those of T$R authors with, say, short stitches in WarHammer Army books (wholly resulting from Games Workshop having enough sense to pay real writers!) - or flavor texts in Dominions units/countries/spells!

[nordlys]

Wrana said:
Thank you. Though I probably won't seek it out now anyways, but still thank you. Do you remember someone else from those T$R slaves actually worth some time?

I found Prince of Lies and Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad very good. Generally, James Lowder and some Ravenloft authors are better than the rest.

Well, it actually depends on what your palate can stand. And I personally am not interested in descriptions of the world badly thought out (read: Forgotten Realms ). And what interest can they really have?

Places, events, people.. In novels they are displayed more vividly than in rules-filled proper accessories, so I read them just for that. Exploring the development of gaming universes (many ones) is sort of a hobby of mine, and novels do fill a lot of gaps the dry rulebooks leave behind. They don't have to be talented, they only have to be canon!

Also, a quality of "in-character gaming accessory" can also vary widely. Just compare those of T$R authors with, say, short stitches in WarHammer Army books (wholly resulting from Games Workshop having enough sense to pay real writers!) - or flavor texts in Dominions

I've read some WH40k novels, and didn't found them any better than typical D&D fiction. I guess there is a reason half of those real writers used pseudonyms while writing for GW As for Dominions fluff, it is fascinating enough, but a single paragraph copypasted between related units hardly describes an universe in detail in space and time... as a matter of fact, it could use a solid shelf of Dominions fiction to fill the rest in!

[HoneyBadger]

I'm actually agreeing with you, Wrana, in case you missed that part.

I'm just explaining that first of all, getting people interested in reading is probably a good thing.

And bad sci fi (or future fantasy) isn't necessarily any better, or any more realistic or accurate, than bad fantasy.

Once again from the top: I'm NOT a fan of Robert Jordan, George Martin, Raymond Feist, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, or David Eddings. I am familiar with their works, however, because I read them probably 10 years ago or more, and they do have their good qualities, generally concerning their earlier works, and in their attempt to recreate/reinvigorate the fantasy genre, by infusing it with as much creativity as they're capable of. I no longer bother reading them, because their works have become bloated, unimaginative, uninspired, and stale, and in some cases graphically violent and pornographic, in such a ham-handed way, vulgar way, that it's actually a turn-off. I simply find that I have better things to read.

I'm also not a real big fan of Tolkien or Piers Anthony, but I'll still re-read The Hobbit every few years, and once in a great while I'll read one of Anthony's more bizarre non-Xanth novels, if only because of how truly kooky they can get.

As far as Russian novelists go, I realize that Russia has a long and impressive tradition, and we are starting to see more translations over here in the 'States. I sadly have almost 0 background in the Russian language, although my mother did take Russian language courses when she was in highschool.

If you could recommend some works that have been translated, or better yet, translated, and made freely available on the internet (it's great advertizement, especially for relatively unfamiliar authors, and testing shows that it increases, rather than reducing, sales of hard copies), then I'd happily spend time seeking them out. Until then, it does little to *say* that the Russians have a better space-program, er novel, until it can be quantified with proof

[JimMorrison]

Piers Anthony? Say it ain't so! The only thing I ever read, that filled my gut with a sense of ill-ease deeper than Gulliver's Travels could inflict me with, was a brief passage from some atrocious Xanth novel that a friend considered hilarious. Okay, deep breaths..... He just thinks he's some sort of high octane version of Dr Seuss, it drives me mad.

Okay, sorry. I guess reading these latest posts made me want so badly to be the reviewer that kicks a writer's teeth in, I feel better now.


I think the thing with Russian vs English fiction is a deeper and more subtle issue, really. I've been very entertained by much of the Russian fiction I've been exposed to - recently watched Daywatch/Nightwatch, and I've gotten a few Russian made CRPGs that are fun - but I can't say that I very highly rate the writing. And I think really, translation just does terrible things for any profound writing - because that precisely special combination of words that strikes something in you, well the other language may not even have them at all, or the translator may substitute a word that has additional connotations that weren't intended, or if it is your second language, some nuances simply may be missed. I think this issue is even greater when it involves the English language, as we have borrowed so many words from so many other languages, that for example if you enter "wise" into thesaurus.reference.com, you get a truncated list of 50 synonyms. Many translators may not know what all of the subtle differences are, and in creative writing, sometimes one word is substituted for another not on merit of connotation, but simply because of the shape and sound of the word. You lose poetic nuances like that the moment it is translated.

Fiction is a fickle mistress. At the point that someone says "I don't get it", the artistic expression is lost, and it has spelled doom for the story. People will generally tend to hold in higher regard the earlier things that they read and digested, because even if they are a bit trite or underdone, they'll still express many new concepts, and broaden one's horizons. So maybe if Piers Anthony was the first fiction I read, I'd like him - and maybe recommend him to people on some basis - but luckily, that is not the case. <3

[MaxWilson]

Don't judge Piers Anthony's writing by the never-ending Xanth series. Some of his books (Macroscope) and the first few (2-3) Xanth books are sort of mildly good. The never-ending Xanth stories are a money machine which he apparently thinks he'd be a fool not to milk--think of them as his day job.

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, you'll notice that I took the time to clarify that I take my Piers Anthony strictly non-Xanth. As long as you avoid them, and any other series he's written, past say the third or fourth book, you'll be ok. Some of his series I've read farther than that, but I don't take responsibility for the quality. He may not be consistently great, and he's certainly not everybody's cup of tea, but what can I say? he writes well to teenaged males, and I used to be a very troubled teenager (I've since matured into a very troubled adult). Him and Tom Deitz are the first two authors that I'd point any hormonal adolescent towards, were I forced kicking and screaming into near proximity with them. I'd add Harry Harrison, but the sad fact is that a lot of his best early work hasn't aged all that well.

One thing that Piers Anthony does, that I really approve of, is that he always (or almost always) includes an Author's Note at the end of his books, taking the time to actually explain something of what was going on in his head or whatever, when he was writing the book. I for one appreciate having a little insight into my authors and their writing process, and it sets him apart from others mentioned, as much as any factor of his writing quality.