Halt Heretic - Opinions - Page 9

Don_Seba · #81 March 8th, 2008, 04:18 PM

Ok, I must be missing something. I do not like Tuidjy's way of lobbying for even more Ulm goodies by disparaging what they just received, but I do not understand why the rest of you are looking for ways of preventing Ulm's troops from shining.

> they would not be such an obvious choice all around

> would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen.

> their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range

Ulm have forsaken magic. They worship physical strength and masterfully crafted equipment. Why on earth should they not have really good, properly equipped troops?

We are not talking about giving them some out of this world items. We are not even talking about letting them have some infantry with 11s in their stats, although I would not be surprised if Ulm is the only nation that does not have build anywhere veteran infantry.

Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

Endoperez · #82 March 8th, 2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Don_Seba said:
Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

Actually, the price for dumbest choice of equipment would go for Agarthans. Poor attack and defense, above-average hp and strength, size 3 or bigger makes swarming harder. Clearly high-precision or high-damage weapons are needed, or weapon with multiple attacks. Good shields combined with high hp and units spread over larger area would help a lot against archers. So what's their weapon of choice? Spear and buckler. Surely their giant brethren have something nice, like Great Clubs or Battleaxes? Nope, spears and bucklers. What about their elites? Glaives, for that wonderful malus to both attack and defense.

Edi · #83 March 8th, 2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Don_Seba said:
Ok, I must be missing something. I do not like Tuidjy's way of lobbying for even more Ulm goodies by disparaging what they just received, but I do not understand why the rest of you are looking for ways of preventing Ulm's troops from shining.

> they would not be such an obvious choice all around

> would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen.

> their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range

Ulm have forsaken magic. They worship physical strength and masterfully crafted equipment. Why on earth should they not have really good, properly equipped troops?

We are not talking about giving them some out of this world items. We are not even talking about letting them have some infantry with 11s in their stats, although I would not be surprised if Ulm is the only nation that does not have build anywhere veteran infantry.

Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

I did some minmaxing of my own, which is why I do not advocate giving them too well equipped mapmove 2 medium infantry. Plate Cuirass, half helmet and shield is going to be just a couple of prot points less than the chainmail infantry. AND will have better defense AND better mapmove. So which ones were you building again when the chainmail infantry is obsolete?

Better mapmove gives far more tactical and strategic flexibility, which will in the end be so much more important than the higher protection of black plate infantry that the only units anyone will ever build are the medium infantry if they are available.

You can see the same thing in action with EA Ulm, the only actual units worth building with that nation are warrior maidens, steel maidens and shield maidens with iron warriors for heavy hitting built near the front. The other normal warrior units simply suck that much the way they currently are. That is why if you want to keep the MA Ulm heavy units viable, shields are out for medium infantry. Not because it is perfectly logical, but to prevent the nation thematics from being irretrievably broken.

I would not mind black plate infantry having +1 str, att & def compared to the regular infantry, however.

CUnknown · #84 March 8th, 2008, 05:27 PM

Keep MA Ulm slow. We don't need no stinking "medium" infantry! We are ULM!

Let them keep their 2 map move, "medium" infantry is like saying you are only "sort of" an Ulmish warrior.

Hehe, no seriously, I like variation in the races, with different strengths and weaknesses. One of MA Ulm's major weaknesses is being slow. I think it should stay like that.

ComTrav · #85 March 8th, 2008, 05:40 PM

Black Knights and Sappers have mapmove 2, that whould be all you need =).

Edi · #86 March 8th, 2008, 05:42 PM

True. Besides that, sappers have a use as mobile crossbow units, but they are expensive. Compared to the other Ulm units anyway, but should not be an issue.

Sombre · #87 March 8th, 2008, 05:57 PM

I'm confused. Ulmish infantry already have hp 12 and str 11, yet I've seen people talking about giving them str 11 in a couple of places.

I think str 12 for black plate guys would be over the top. They aren't supposed to be elite and str 12 is pretty elite by human soldier standards.

Edi · #88 March 8th, 2008, 06:32 PM

There's regular human and there's Ulm. Stronger and more durable, suck at resisting magic. As far as the str goes, I'm fine with it. Though 12 would not be out of line, it'd just be +1 to normal Ulm strength but the later eras are supposedly softer than their barbarian past. Hell, the EA Ulm women have str 11 and warriors 12, with the elites 13.

Black Knights have str 13, no reason why Guardians should not as well. Black plate infantry should probably stay at str 11. Even getting the full helmet swapped for blacksteel helmet would be an immediate +1 def.

The thing is that people often forget the str when talking about combat stats, which are usually the same across the line.

Saulot · #89 March 8th, 2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Don_Seba said:
Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

The crowd cheers as the armor contest comes to a close with a three-way tie, and the smiths grinning with their shiny lead medals.

Ulmish Mayor speaking to the gathered crowd, "And now it's time for a favorite amongst the lads, the annual 'Weakest Will' competition!"

The crowd cheers.

The mayor continues, "Alright, are the competitors ready? (he pauses) Ready, set, go!"

One contestant immediately belts out, "I give up!"

The mayor replies, "We have a winner!"

The crowd cheers.

Endoperez · #90 March 9th, 2008, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Edi said:
The thing is that people often forget the str when talking about combat stats, which are usually the same across the line.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure most people haven't even noticed Machakans have lower base encumberance than other humans, for example. Point of strength isn't as useful as one more attack or defence, though, in most cases.