Bogarus Rises! Dominions 3.14 Now Available!

[Kuritza]

Ah. I thought its about Rurik and the Norman theory.
I mean, Rurik's descendants were perceived as Russian princes in every sense of the word, so I thought that vanir wouldnt be treated as some outlandish conquerors as well.

[Kristoffer O]

Trade/conquest. Goes hand in hand in most cases. It is probably a bit Rurikish, but I'm not yet clear on the legacy of the finno-ugric remnants of the population and their role.

[Edi]

Remnant is probably the word you're looking for, Kristoffer.

Vanarus seems to me to be as KO said, a nation ruled by Vanir who came and conquered the lands of the Rus or assumed leadership through trade influence. It's what I first thought when I heard the name way back when. That would be a very close historical parallel to the Vikings who sailed east along the rivers and established fairly significant outposts in Russia in the first millennium, around 800-1000 AD.

So EA (or MA, depending) Vanarus would be something like an amalgamation of Vanir, the Rus and Finland circa 1000. When you look at the Vyedun and Vyedma units that are already included (but currently not used) in the game, they are very much like a mage or shaman in the Finnish tradition would be. Finland has historically been a battleground between Sweden and Russia and there has been very much a mixing of influences from both directions here, just that we speak a language which made it very, very difficult to annihilate our pagan beliefs (it did eventually happen, but there is a lot of data available because it disappeared so late).

[Kuritza]

Vyedun and Vyedma are both 100% Russian words. Maybe Finnish too, I dont know. For Vyedun, literally 'Knower', I cant think of an exact analogue, its somethink like 'one who's got arcane knowledge', and Vyedma is 'Witch'. Well, maybe not exactly the type of witch Marignon hunters are looking for, but its an exact translation. Baba Yaga is an archetypical 'Vyedma'.

'Rus led by Vanir' was my first thought when I've read this word on this forum too, of course. Vikings, also called 'varyags' in Russia (supposedly derieved from norse vaeringjar), were indeed a major part of life in Rus as traders, druzhina warriors or boyars (nobility). Surely, Vanir would have an even greater influence.

---

By the way - do Firebirds bring good luck indeed, or is it just a superstition? I mean, is it worth summoning a few in my cities just to fend of misfortune, or not?

[Endoperez]

Kuritza said:
Vyedun and Vyedma are both 100% Russian words. Maybe Finnish too, I dont know. For Vyedun, literally 'Knower', I cant think of an exact analogue, its somethink like 'one who's got arcane knowledge', and Vyedma is 'Witch'.

Vydeun isn't a Finnish word, but interestingly enough, there's a Finnish word 'tiet�j�' that literally translates as "knower", that was used for shamans and witch-doctors and perhaps wise people in general. So it could be that the two words were formed the same way in both languages, or perhaps one is directly translated from the other.

EDIT: Firebirds do have a very small chance of creating a good event.

[Kuritza]

'Remnants of finno-ugric population'?
Afaik, varyags didnt commit no genocide, and slavic population wasnt finno-ugric, although these were present as well. ))
...
Having browsed some sources - yes, it should be classified as conquest. Though Rurik was invited by Novgorod to become a Knyaz/Prince, his son Oleg waged a military campaign, unifying the eastern slavs under his rule.
Its just that nobody now perceives him as an outlander; historians refer to him as of a great Russian prince.

[Wrana]

To Zeldor:

It would be interesting to see Polish husars if we allow later units The ultimate cavalry with fear aura.

You played WarHammer, too? Yeah, Tsarina Kattarina rulezz! Especially 5th ed. version! But I digress...
Actually, Poland was at the time a military power in itself & remained so until 18th century, when their nobility's pride got better of them & their government system turned into a complete anarchy. It probably deserves a separate faction, as well - especially as West Slavs' folklore strongly differed from East ones' (though I am hardly familiar with the former - in fact, I know Caucasus or Finnish one better... )
However, Polish hussars actually WERE present in Tsar's army - as mercenaries, along with German reiters. I may try to make them a capital-only unit to accurately represent them being few in numbers...

[Wrana]

To Kuritza:

Thats because bylinas are centered aroud several heroes who lived at about the same time Ilya Muromets, Dobrynya Nikitych and Alesha Popovitch, mostly. But druzhinas arent necessarily assotiated with that particular Knyaz, or any bogatyr at all.

Well, you are just wrong: Ilya Murometz (probably Murmanin, or Morovlenin - such versions were also used) may be a combination figure (he is also noted in German tale originating at about 11th century; some Jew enthusiasts even say that he was a Jew & his surname is actually Morovlenin, meaning "wall-builder" ), but if bylinas' hero is based on actual man - than he is most probably Ilya 'Chobotok' ("The Boot" - for fighting the steppe invaders with such a weapon!)) Pechersky, living at 12th century, buried at Kiev monks' ossiary and later declared a saint by an Orthodox Church;
Dobrynya Nikitich is most probably based on Vladimir's uncle - however, there are 7 warriors of the same name in annals...;
Alexander 'Alesha' Popovitch, afair, also lived at 12th century & became famous for declaring that it's wrong for Russian warriors to fight each other serving local knyaz & far better for all to fight common enemies serving Veliky Knyaz of Kiev (who was at the time formally considered a head of state - though most times he didn't even bother to try to order local knyaz...);
Bogatyr Zhydovin ("The Jew") is probably based on Khazar Kaganate's warriors - & so his prototypes may be placed at 9th-10th century - or else this figure appeared in bylinas much later, probably in 15th-17th century;
Volga / Volkh Vseslavich - the only one of bylinas' figure who can be considered a "mage" - may be based on Knyaz Oleg (Helgi) Veschij ("The Wise") - who was regent before Vladimir's father;
et cetera, ad nauseam - there are, as I've heard, even bylinas about Ermak Timofeevich - a completely historical figure who conquered Siberia at 16th century... So bylinas, as is the case with other legends, place together heroes and situations from different times and places & often use combination figures/situations.

...By the way. Knyaz "Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko" from these Bylinas is actually Vladimir I, around 960-1050, who baptized Russia.

By the way, would you be so kind as to give me title or link to any SCIENTIFIC work which states so. I've certainly seen it enough in popular books which so love simplify everything..

Not much is known about Russian paganism, thats true. Christian clergy did its best to wipe all traces of pagan traditions, and they succeeded.

Please, spare me Neopaganistic slogans. There are much simpler reasons: the Slavic people, unfortunately, had no written culture until appearance of Christian missionaries - and those were simply not interested in writing down things they considered to be just a bastardization of Hellenic paganism (while pagans did not want to learn anything from Greek monks). The truly common written culture formed in Novgorod only well after Christianization. While Ancient Greeks, as well as Scandinavians, had written culture during their heroic age, and Arabs hail from the region where written culture was relatively common even before their advent... See, no need to make "Public Enemies #1" of Christians and form a historical OGPU to fight them...
As for Simargl - I have noted this earlier, while the version of one figure becoming many, while popular afaik among modern occultists, and probably true in cases of Indian mythology, was not proved to actually occur in mythology of other peoples. I even suspect that true situation was often the other way around...

And why, I ask of thee, did Vans 'conquer' Bogarus? Logically, they were invited to rule!

Well, firstly, I've seen it before in some flavor text here...
Also about Rurik - he was certainly invited to try to make order in Novgorod melting-pot... from Staray Ladoga, which, for those who didn't know, is also deep inside Slavic lands (or Finnish - as population here was mixed). While appearance of above-mentioned Oleg in Kiev, as you'd already noted, certainly had all properties of military conquest...
To All on Vyedmas, etc.:
I think that etymology from a word meaning "to know" is actually quite common - even in English, "wizard" has common root with "wise". While "magic" is derived from title of Zoroastrian priests and wise-men... However, Finns were actually considered to be mighty sorcerers - certainly by their Scandinavian neighbors, & probably by medieval Rus as well - at least in Pushkin's fantasy poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" which was written in 19th century, sorcerer characters are either Finns, or of Arabo-Persian origin... And also actual traditions in this respect could be very close for Finns and East Slavs - especially as they lived close to each other for some hundreds of years.

[Kuritza]

Wrana said:
To Kuritza:

Well, you are just wrong: Ilya Murometz (probably Murmanin, or Morovlenin - such versions were also used)

There's no reason to believe Jew enthusiasts or these trying to alter an existing second name, which is Muromets, meaning (as you know) 'from Murom'. Occam's razor principle.
Of course he's a combination hero, but mostly he's based on one particular man, Ilya Chobotok, who was born in Murom as well.
And of course, I am well aware that their prototypes didnt meet. Just as the Thre Musketeers, btw. But in bylinas, they did - and I was speaking about cultural references Bugarus is probably based upon.

By the way, would you be so kind as to give me title or link to any SCIENTIFIC work which states so. I've certainly seen it enough in popular books which so love simplify everything..

Again, I was speaking about the 'mythical space', where all the popular heroes lived during one 'Age of Heroes' (also check the name of LA Bogarus theme). I know that there's absolutely no proof that Vladimir I is 'Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko'. Between you and me, I also find it very funny that Vladimir I was sanctified, seeing how he committed every known crime during his coming to power.

Please, spare me Neopaganistic slogans. There are much simpler reasons: the Slavic people, unfortunately, had no written culture until appearance of Christian missionaries - and those were simply not interested in writing down things they considered to be just a bastardization of Hellenic paganism

Spare me your suspicions as well. I'm absolutely indifferent towards both Orthodox and Neo-pagans. While what you say is true, Church did oppose Paganism in Russia, and quite actively. Why do you think there are no statues in Orthodox churches? Out of fear that these might be assotiated with idols. Etc, etc - while Christianity was surely embraced quite freely, it had to rival Paganism, and rivalry was fierce.

[Wrana]

There's no reason to believe Jew enthusiasts or these trying to alter an existing second name, which is Muromets, meaning (as you know) 'from Murom'. Occam's razor principle.

Well, he was somewhat drunk at the time, and also a building engineer by profession... It just illustrates how much we actually know.

But in bylinas, they did - and I was speaking about cultural references Bugarus is probably based upon.

Well, in this case, sorry. But you didn't specify this clearly.
Also, I would better like "Age of Heroes" as Vanarus - i.e., Medium Era. While in later period I'd prefer (relatively) disciplined Tsar's army, with Strelets & Oprichniks (by the way, the latter are almost only possible candidates for national non-summoned sacred troops! )
As for Vladimir (and he shouldn't be used with numerable, being a Kiev Knyaz - the numbers began only from Moscow dynasty - as Tsar Alexander 1st's case clearly illustrates, Alexander Nevsky's being a Veliky Knyaz and father of the founder of the Moscow line) - well, Constantine the Great of Byzantium was hardly better, but also "equal to apostles"

I'm absolutely indifferent towards both Orthodox and Neo-pagans. While what you say is true, Church did oppose Paganism in Russia, and quite actively. Why do you think there are no statues in Orthodox churches? Out of fear that these might be assotiated with idols.

Glad to hear - the latter can be found in quite surprising places!
Yes, I know that there was afierce struggle between Orthodox Christianity and paganism - it just doesn't explain most facts. AS for statues - I'd sooner think that a fact that there ARE ones in Catholic temples could be more close to a real reason...