two v. two v. two v. two v. two (full)

[quantum_mechani]

Zooko said:
(b) -- explained -- I think that there is a wide demand for "balance" mods because the "All vs. All" format punishes aggression and leads to lots of lurking/hoarding/diplomacy. I think that the basic unmodded game is well-balanced for a contest in which there is a good reward for aggression, but not well-balanced for a game in which there is extended lurking/hoarding/diplomacy etc. before the aggression starts.

So I think for *this* game -- pentagon format -- that balance mods actually "unbalance" the game more than balance it.

But I decided to use Zen's mods just so I wouldn't have to argue with people about what mods to use. :-)

Fair enough. However, I like to argue so if will indulge me...

My mod is not to limit hoarding or any other tactic(well, almost, the one and only thing reduced in power is Caelum's mages, but almost everyone agrees they are overpowerd to some degree). It is it to open up strategies that would be highly inadvisable unmodified. When was the last time you purchased light cavalry? Or for that matter any troop with less than 10 armour and no special ability (flying, sacred, ranged troop, etc.)? Now, other mods have tried to do this, but they always ended up turning off players because they boosted things that were already used, and thus made them unbalanced (i.e., cherry's boosted white centaurs). I have tried to strictly limit myself to the obviously unused troops (in some cases I also made slight tweaks to mages of themes that were used, but the theme on the whole rated very low), and even then to only boost them in small steps.

[Zooko]

Well, it sounds like a good idea to me the way you put it, but I'm still only a little interested. How about we put it to a vote, and I abstain for the voting for now?

[The Panther]

I looked over the mods briefly today and was impressed. For example, I studied the mods on Marignon, the race I have in this game and the one I tested extensively in SP last night to make a pretender.

I was initially disappointed that QM did not change the cost of ANY of the troops that I was buying nearly exclusively in the SP test (namely Xbows, flagellents, and Chalice Knights). But then, it dawned on me that this was the exact purpose of the mod, in that it would make the other choices a bit more attractive than they currently are.

I also looked over a few of the other mods, namely the mages for C'tis and Caelum. I was pleased to see the grossly overpowered Caelum mages were nerfed a bit, for that is the correct thing to do. However, I was very dissapointed that he did not nerf the overpowered C'tis mages, for those guys are far too cheap to be a build-anywhere mage.

Overall, I would say that I am impressed with the mod and initially favorable. In fact, I would like to test it out at some time, though I doubt we could get sufficient support in this current game with our unusual format. Perhaps the next Slugfest game would be great for this.

In fact, I would even support the QM mod in this game as a test, though I will go either way.

BTW, I cannot even imagine playing a game without the Zen mods anymore. Our currently-running Song of the Blade game is living proof, as the air/astral nations with their cheesy Wrathful Skies tactic look to be the final two nations at this point.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
However, I was very dissapointed that he did not nerf the overpowered C'tis mages, for those guys are far too cheap to be a build-anywhere mage.

Well, that is much more debateable than the Caelum issue. The thing is, it is not that C'tis mages per se that are so good, it is skeleton spamming - they just happen to be very good at it. Changeing battle spells is beyond the scope of this particular mod.

Second, nerfing the sauro is difficult. It is really the teeth of C'tis, without it they would rank among the weakest of nations. As they stand now sauromancers does not automatically catapult C'tis to the position of top nation the way Caelum's does- it is quite possible for any nation to counter the spam, however annoying.

Thirdly, it goes against the philosophy of the mod, namely to make what was unusable usable. Caelum was the unique exception to the rule of boosting in that it was unusable because of being _too_ powerful. In any case, I'm quite sure nerfing C'tis would bring down a legion of annoyed dominions players- exactly what this moderate mod is trying to avoid.

Anyway, glad you liked the mod, hope you don't mind my long winded defense of saourmancers

[The Panther]

Actually, the sauro/marsh masters are probably OK, and certainly not as bad as the High Seraphs. It is mostly the fact that the best C'tis mages can be recruited in any castle which makes them terribly unbalanced.

That is pretty much the ONLY reason that C'tis is greatly superior over a nation like Man, which has the penalizing restriction of having its good mages being capitol only. Were this to be balanced, both nations would be much closer to equal. The Crones are a powerful mage indeed, just as good as or better than a sauromancer (though more expensive).

I would even go so far as to say that Caelum just might not be the best nation in the game if the High Seraphs were not recruitable everywhere. Getting only one per turn just does not scare me like an opponent getting 4-5 per turn. I won my only game I played as Caelum by doing precisely this.

But as it is, Caelum and C'tis are pretty much in the top 4 of the rankings of just about any experienced player and Man is usually near the bottom. In fact, Man has no chance against either of those nations in a 1 on 1 except on the smallest of maps.

Unfortunately, I don't think this can be changed in a mod, though I could be wrong.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
Actually, the sauro/marsh masters are probably OK, and certainly not as bad as the High Seraphs. It is mostly the fact that the best C'tis mages can be recruited in any castle which makes them terribly unbalanced.

That is pretty much the ONLY reason that C'tis is greatly superior over a nation like Man, which has the penalizing restriction of having its good mages being capitol only. Were this to be balanced, both nations would be much closer to equal. The Crones are a powerful mage indeed, just as good as or better than a sauromancer (though more expensive).

I would even go so far as to say that Caelum just might not be the best nation in the game if the High Seraphs were not recruitable everywhere. Getting only one per turn just does not scare me like an opponent getting 4-5 per turn. I won my only game I played as Caelum by doing precisely this.

But as it is, Caelum and C'tis are pretty much in the top 4 of the rankings of just about any experienced player and Man is usually near the bottom. In fact, Man has no chance against either of those nations in a 1 on 1 except on the smallest of maps.

Unfortunately, I don't think this can be changed in a mod, though I could be wrong.

Yes, capital onlying is not moddable. I agree that making the high seraph capital only would be ideal, though a nerf to the lower seraph would probably be needed as well.

I disagree with your assessment of Man though. Stronger on smaller maps, true, but formidable nonetheless as long as you are not on faerun or something.

[Alneyan]

The Panther said:
BTW, I cannot even imagine playing a game without the Zen mods anymore. Our currently-running Song of the Blade game is living proof, as the air/astral nations with their cheesy Wrathful Skies tactic look to be the final two nations at this point.

Bah! I couldn't fight a war and win it if my life depended on it, so you shouldn't worry about me, I think; Vanheim could be another matter altogether though.

[King Lear]

As I haven't done a whole lot with either mod, I'm happy to accomadate whatever the majority decides. In other words, I abstain =) Although I'm glad to see that at least one other likes the novelty value of indi 8 =)

[Zooko]

I'm tired of waiting, so I hereby declare that as soon as quantum_mechani and Turin announce their nation choices, then we'll proceed with the game with whatever settings are currently winning the vote.

[Alneyan]

Zooko said:
I'm tired of waiting, so I hereby declare that as soon as quantum_mechani and Turin announce their nation choices, then we'll proceed with the game with whatever settings are currently winning the vote.

I want *you* to recount the ballots! Right now! I'm waiting!