patch 2.08 is out

[Norfleet]

This would make the durability of an immobile pretender chassis completely irrelevant:

Since an immobile creature is ALWAYS "helpless", as it cannot move, dodge attacks, or strike enemies, wouldn't it always be killed instantly?

Furthermore, in D&D, AC is an overly abused measure of too many things. In Dominions II, it's much more clearly defined: Defense represents a unit's ability to dodge: When paralyzed, this falls to Zero, and enemies pretty much always hit him. Penetrating his protection rating, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter: A big chunk of rock may very well be nigh indestructible by your puny weapons, no matter how easy it is for you to strike. I believe protection value is penalized if you become paralyzed or surrounded, but sometimes, even that is not enough to allow a weak unit with a poor weapon to damage you.

And it still doesn't address the real threat of paralyzation...that of being stuck on a battlefield with similarly paralyzed opponents, unable to move or otherwise end this battle because everyone is stuck and paralyzation Lasts forever!

[NTJedi]

SurvivalistMerc:

Even if those units from dominions or units from AD&D were doing triple damage it doesn't matter because the regenerating portion was so great the damage done is gone at the start of next turn. This is what was happening.

MY MAIN POINT:
As of right now it's NOT the units killing the supercombatants. The problem is that paralyzed units cannot flee and are then killed by the game. In Dominions_2 units are not making the kill... THE GAME is making the auto-kill. That is wrong.

[ February 16, 2004, 21:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

I understand and accept your point. I agree that the time limit system currently in place has a "wrong" feel to it.

I would prefer an autokill of paralyzed and other "helpless" creatures who have no defenders and are in reach of any unit.

I will point out, however that the AD&D system does not use "protection" to reduce damage of successful hits. And...come to think about it...if someone is paralyzed the attackers probably ought to be able to do better than hack at the armored portions of the target....

My point: I agree with you that the mechanism by which the result is achieved is unsatisfying and that you have a right to be unhappy with the mechanism (time limit) by which the result is achieved. But I like and support the result, though I would achieve it by a different game mechanic. It seems that you have a problem with both the mechanic (time limit) and the result (supercombatant dies). Or am I wrong?

[SurvivalistMerc]

Norfleet,

Under my proposed mechanic, merely being immobile would not make one "helpless" if one were a hunk of rock. The hunk of rock would not be considered "helpless" unless it were paralyzed or rendered incapable of casting any spells.

I suppose immobile hunks of rock with no magic skills would be considered "helpless" under my system. But I would count the defenders that are part of structures like most fortifications as defenders for purposes of saying that even these helpless units do have active, non-helpless defenders.

Does that sense?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Under my proposed mechanic, merely being immobile would not make one "helpless" if one were a hunk of rock. The hunk of rock would not be considered "helpless" unless it were paralyzed or rendered incapable of casting any spells.

The problem with autokilling someone who is paralyzed is that it makes paralysis as good of a spell as soulslay, for a smaller fatigue cost, easier casting, and one less research level.

I suppose immobile hunks of rock with no magic skills would be considered "helpless" under my system. But I would count the defenders that are part of structures like most fortifications as defenders for purposes of saying that even these helpless units do have active, non-helpless defenders.

Why should something like a spellcasting Sphinx or a Colossal Stone Head be destroyed just because there's nobody standing in front of it when a soulless punches it once?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
But I would count the defenders that are part of structures like most fortifications as defenders for purposes of saying that even these helpless units do have active, non-helpless defenders.

Does that sense?

Nope. I have no clue what you're going on about. Fact of the matter is, however, that Dominions II already *HAS* helplessness: A unit which is immobilized has a defense skill of 0, and is easily surrounded, which penalizes his protection.

Of course, I'm not quite sure how you would cut the throat of a rock, or how, exactly, doing that would really harm a golem....

There's just too many different, really weird creatures in Dom2 to simply declare an autokill. People should have to work for the kills.

Also, what if the paralyzed unit is protected by spells such that killing him would kill YOU? A fire-shielded and astral-shielded unit with a Phoenix Pyre is no pushover, even if you can simply walk up and stab him in the face....only to have him STUN YOU, BURN YOU, and EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE. And come back.

[ February 16, 2004, 21:49: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[NTJedi]

The problem with the game is that units which cannot flee are auto-killed. This is not a manuever or attack being done by units... the game does an auto-kill. That's wrong.

For my case these were weak units which clearly lacked the weapons and power to permanently wound my regenerating Tartarian Cyclops(size-6). It would be like someone asking you to destroy a 20-foot bronze statue with a fork... and the statue regenerates.

Just because a unit is paralyzed doesn't mean the unit should be auto-killed. Sure it can be more vunerable... but I'm quite certain even in AD&D low level characters with ordinary weapons wouldn't be able to kill a paralyzed Ancient Red Dragon.

=========
Norfleet and Graeme Dice also have excellent points.

[ February 16, 2004, 22:01: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Just because a unit is paralyzed doesn't mean the unit should be auto-killed. Sure it can be more vunerable... but I'm quite certain even in AD&D low level characters with ordinary weapons wouldn't be able to kill a paralyzed Ancient Red Dragon.

Well, a dragon, yeah: You could stab it in the eyes and try to gouge out its brains. Try killing a golem with a fork, or chopping down the mightiest tree in the forest with....a herring!

[ February 16, 2004, 22:03: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Zapmeister]

One relatively small thing I'd *REALLY* like to see in the next patch is for it not to crash every time a combat occurs!

How bad is this problem? Should existing games upgrade, or will they grind to a halt if they do?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
How bad is this problem? Should existing games upgrade, or will they grind to a halt if they do?

I've found it to be pretty bad: Nearly every time a combat starts, the game will lock up during turn generation, at least on the Windows Version. I wonder if this has anything to do with the new improvements to the combat AI?