OT: Alien Contact

[Fyron]

Yes, some people did believe this. But mankind in general was what I was driving at.

The people living around the people writing the Bible, sure. But, many ancient cultures believed the world was round. Pretty much all of the people in those cultures believed that. Mankind in general was torn 50/50 between the two beliefs.

My mistake. But did come true, did it not?

Almost all (if not all) of that stuff was written after the fact. It was not prediction, it was postdiction.

I gave other examples to make up for that.

No they don't. They are all flawed.

In the new testiment parts of it are still being fulfilled down to this day. The new testiment brought out that we would see multitudes of bad things happening in the Last days. These things are indeed happening. You may say that they have always happened. Granted they have, but not to the extent that they are right now.

This has totally changed topic from where this thread started.
But I have to take off for a while. I will be back later tonight.[/QB]

No they aren't. What are some examples of these things that are supposedly happening?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Ragnarok:

quote:

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Originally posted by Aloofi:
Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up?

Thanks!
Doesn't really help but hey.
As far as I'm concerned this topic is over. This thread can now go back to discussing aliens.

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Well that's nice. Just abandon the discussion so you can't have your views questioned, and can go on happily living with them, even though they could be wrong. That is probably worse than that other horribly horribly wrong thing that happened earlier.

[Ragnarok]

Well that's nice. Just abandon the discussion so you can't have your views questioned, and can go on happily living with them, even though they could be wrong. That is probably worse than that other horribly horribly wrong thing that happened earlier.

I'm not abandoning the discussion. If you wish I will return later and discuss further. But I see no point in it as neither one of us are getting anywhere.
I've had my views questioned many times before and it has never stopped me from beliving them.

Almost all (if not all) of that stuff was written after the fact. It was not prediction, it was postdiction.

How can you prove it was postdiction?
Again, if you examine each book of the Bible, and really look for dates and so forth, you can come out with a date of when the book was started and completed.

No they don't. They are all flawed.

So you're saying that Babylon never did fall to the assyrian army?

No they aren't. What are some examples of these things that are supposedly happening?

2nd Timothy 3: 1-5 has some. Earthqacks, wars, famines, pestilences, nation rising against nation, etc.

Ok, now I'm really leaving, but if you wish, I will return tonight.

[minipol]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
In that case... why do you think the Bible is any evidence? Why is it (and hence Christianity) better than other religions? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?

The "evidence" in the Bible is only corroborated by the world around you because the authors of the Bible were good authors and wrote it as such.[/QB]

Hhhmm. You also referred to a book (a physics book) as and i quote: "It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. "
So if it's ok for you to refer to a book, why can't Ragnarok do it. Just because your book is a scientific book and his the bible doesn't mean that your book is more inclined to be true.
History is full of scientific books that years later (or centuries later) proved to be utter crap.
And it's always easy to question a book:
"why do you think that physics book is any evidence? Why is it better than other physics book? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?"
Don't get me wrong i love science and i do believe that what you are saying about the speed of light is true, it just don't agree with the way you are trying to show there is no evidence that the bible is true (or wrong for that matter).
Any book can be full of crap.

And i personally don't believe that there is a good or upper being. When we die, there's nothing. The big void. The big zero.

[minipol]

i forgot: as for aliens, i do believe they are out there but i don't think we will see one very soon. I once saw a program on that string theory you guys where talking about earlier and it was amazing. 10 dimensions. go figure. to much for my brain to handle. I have trouble with 3 dimensions after a few beers.

[Fyron]

How can you prove it was postdiction?
Again, if you examine each book of the Bible, and really look for dates and so forth, you can come out with a date of when the book was started and completed.

How can you prove it is prediction? That is the claim on which you base your argument. You can not prove this, so your argument has no base.

So you're saying that Babylon never did fall to the assyrian army?

That was not an example you gave. You said that the new testament said that Jerusalem would fall to Babylon. In fact, you said this:

It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.

There was nothing about Assyrians.

2nd Timothy 3: 1-5 has some. Earthqacks, wars, famines, pestilences, nation rising against nation, etc.

Oh, so he said that some very common disasters that had happened in the past would happen again? That is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Well duh. It doesn't make it impressive at all, and does not mean that anything else in the Bible is true just because of that.

[ February 26, 2003, 23:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Hhhmm. You also referred to a book (a physics book) as and i quote: "It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. "
So if it's ok for you to refer to a book, why can't Ragnarok do it. Just because your book is a scientific book and his the bible doesn't mean that your book is more inclined to be true.
History is full of scientific books that years later (or centuries later) proved to be utter crap.
And it's always easy to question a book:
"why do you think that physics book is any evidence? Why is it better than other physics book? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?"
Don't get me wrong i love science and i do believe that what you are saying about the speed of light is true, it just don't agree with the way you are trying to show there is no evidence that the bible is true (or wrong for that matter).
Any book can be full of crap.

First off, there is a huge difference between subjective truths and objective truths. Objective truths are verifiable outside of the context of the beliefs and reactions of a single person. Subjective truths are not, and completely depend on the beliefs of the person in question.

The formulae and such in my Physics book have valid mathematical proofs that show that they are correct. Examining the proofs for error turned up nothing, so the forumulae and then the theorems and statements based on those formulae have a valid basis. So, I can conclude that they are more or less accurate, and are objective instead of subjective. The Bible lacks anything like this. It is based off of subjective opinion used as fact and evidence, which simply does not work.

The physics book could be full of crap, but at least it is not based off of crap, it is based of of logical reasoning. Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words ) crap. A book based off of flawed subjective truths can not be right. A book based off of valid objective reasoning (such as my physics book) at least has a valid basis. It is very unlikely that we are completley wrong about the basic principles on which the information in the physics book is founded. If we were, we would not have these nice computers to be used to post on this forum. The information presented in my physics book was used to design them, and the internet, so it looks to me as if it is not crap. However, the Bible does lack these objective facts that the physics book is based off of. It's basis is entirely subjective. So, it can not be taken as true, because it's claims have no logical proof. You have to take a huge leap of faith to believe the Bible. You do not have to take such a leap to believe my physics book.

quote:

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Originally posted by minipol:
i forgot: as for aliens, i do believe they are out there but i don't think we will see one very soon. I once saw a program on that string theory you guys where talking about earlier and it was amazing. 10 dimensions. go figure. to much for my brain to handle. I have trouble with 3 dimensions after a few beers.

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I think it is supposed to be 11, actually. Of course, it is an extreme theory, and has little chance of ever being proven satisfactorily.

[ February 26, 2003, 23:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[minipol]

Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words ) crap.

I didn't say that

I think it is supposed to be 11, actually. Of course, it is an extreme theory, and has little chance of ever being proven satisfactorily.

11? Wow. It looked promosing though. In that program they said that suddenly a lot of "unsolved" mysteries of science could be solved by it or at least when they recalculated stuff it now worked
I have no idea what to expect from it but it was quite complicated. Interesting though.

[Andr�s]

Discussing god existence, the accuracy of the bible, and even all this fight religion vs science, I have my own point of view but I will not join that discussion, just say you have a religious opposition to the existence of aliens and step aside for those who like to see scientific proof before believing something.

Considering the numbers of stars out there, even if a small fraction is similar to our sun and even a small fraction of them is orbited by a planet similar to Earth, there still remain billions of Earth-like worlds only in the Milky Way.
It would be very selfish to believe that Earth is the only inhabited planet in the universe.
Almost sounds like Paulo III telling Copernicus that earth is the center of the universe and it doesn't move. You agree Earth orbits around the sun don't you?

And if they exist and have the same dreams about the stars we have, I think they'll eventually try to reach other worlds, the same way I believe we'll eventually do that ourselves.

I don�t know enough about relativistic physics to seriously discuss if you can move faster than light or not. Most respected scientists claim you can�t, and I�ll take their word.
So unless a warp points, warp-drives, hyperdrives or other bizarre sci-fi twist of physics is possible, travel between even close systems will take several centuries or even millennia.
But that is not proof that interstellar travel is impossible, it just indicates that it takes a long time.

If someone is arriving Earth now, they must have departed from their home planet long before our industrial era, and of course our first radio transmissions haven't reach there yet.

They can have advanced astronomy and be able to determine that Earth is a planet likely to hold life. There must be thousands of planet that fit the basic profile of our planet (assuming it�s similar to theirs and that's how they pinpointed Earth). It must have been a shot in the dark.

For such a long journey, their ship can be a small one carrying a handful of crewers in some sort of animated suspension.
Or it can be a large ship, carrying enough population to live several generations on board during the trip.
They will be cut out of their home, only a few thousand at best alone in a world inhabited by many billions.
Not enough for any war, at least if the objective is conquest even if they're armed with better weapons than ours, so they�ll surely try to be friendly towards the natives.

But of course all of this is a lie, aliens have been among us for a long time.
Not only they can travel several light years in days but they can also shift between dimensions.
Our governants have been replaced by alien replicants, and they are trying to make us fight each other to weaken us and facilitate their invasion plans....

[Fyron]

Originally posted by minipol:
[QB]

quote:

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Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words ) crap.

I didn't say that

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You used "crap". I was just being consistent, instead of saying something like "unsound".