Ukraine 2021(?)

[Karagin]

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

So I don't buy the propaganda coming out of the area from either side. Recall no army does everything right all the time, and given how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and judge we are all seeing things from a point of view of not being there.

I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Karagin

''''''''''given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by DRG

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

Didn't Biden back the 2014 coup in Ukraine?

Yes, truth is always lost in a war.

Try explaining to folks how infrastructure like powerplants and such are legitimate targets and you will get branded all kinds of names. I was recently kicked out of a history group for citing the Laws of Land Warfare on how structures lose any special protection IF one side or the other uses them as part of a defense or to house military equipment.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

...
I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

Well, for last 10 days I almost do nothing but check battlefield news and read analyses, especially, that it is neighbour country...

In short, most analytics here agree, that it was not the war, that the Russians expected. Possibly trying to make it relatively "peaceful", and counting on little opposition, there were only weak missile and airforce preparation strikes. Southern direction actions were well prepared and trained, but surprisingly, on Kiev direction there were thrown two armies from Far East and Middle Asia, with worse training, older equipment and high conscript ratio. Elite 1st Tank Army was supposed to take Kharkiv, but met with strong and well prepared opposition there. Very important factor is, that most Russian conscript troops evidently had no "heart" for real war, especially that they were told, that it was basically a peacekeeping operation with people's support against the corrupt government, whose army would probably decompose. None of it appeared even close. And the people were former "brothers", speaking similar or the same language. Russian army did not evolve far from Warsaw Pact tactics, especially with little combined operation capability, while Ukrainian one was professionally trained according to NATO standards. And of course, if Russian leading columns were able to move into the country, there started problems with logistics - which was never strong and well-organized in USSR/Russia (supply convoys, protection and recovery of broken down equipment). Huge books will be written someday on this war... (provided, that it would not lead to mankind destruction).

Of course, Ukrainian side, trying to gain support and raise morale, publishes films of capturing or burning enemy equipment. They are mostly taken by National Guard territorial army, which makes ambushes in vast country. On the other hand, it is overlooked, that main burden of halting Russian advance is carried by regular Ukrainian army, with tanks and BMPs - there were reportedly fierce tank battles around Kharhkiv, Chernihiv and north of Kiev, but no reports are revealed to public. And regular soldiers are forbidden to carry mobile phones. Surely Ukrainian ground forces lost a couple thousand soldiers as well. Irregardless if there were any US interests or not, one thing is sure: noone in the 21st century is entitled to invade a neighbour in order to overthrow democratic government which does not violate human rights, or to dictate if sovereign country can be a member of some alliance, and this "special military operation" may not be justified.

[DRG]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukr...rces-1.6372259

Escalating fodder for the propaganda industry on both sides

"Brave Foreign Volunteers!!" <<>>" Murderous Foreign contract killers!!"

Potato-Potatoe

I will give the guy credit for putting it all on the line. First against ISIS and now in Ukraine

Don

[DRG]

Hows this for going from the sublime to the rediculous

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-on-tax-form

Ukraine authorities say seized Russian tanks don’t need to be declared on tax form
Corruption-fighting body urges citizens to ‘continue to defend the motherland’ while easing any concerns about ‘significant changes in the property status’

[Karagin]

Seems that Germany sent a bunch of duds to Ukraine, many of the MPADs are not working, thing is they sent old Igla MPADs, 700 of which have failed to fire. Along with moldy ammo for AKs and other WP weapons. I guess they didn't sell off all that old East German stock of weapons and ammo. But hey it's the thought that counts...

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Seems that Germany sent a bunch of duds to Ukraine, many of the MPADs are not working, thing is they sent old Igla MPADs, 700 of which have failed to fire. Along with moldy ammo for AKs and other WP weapons. I guess they didn't sell off all that old East German stock of weapons and ammo. But hey it's the thought that counts...

Germany gave 500 Stingers and 1000 PzF 3, and German government claims, that they arrived to Ukraine on Wednesday (2 March). I guess there are no complaints concerning them.

Just about that time it was announced, that Germany would give also 2700 ex-DDR Strelas (I assume Strela-2M?), but German press revealed, that according to Bundeswehr reports, only around 2000 are still useful. Sadly, Germany is unjustly criticized for this decision in some scandal-seeking media, which do not mention Stingers... Anyway, I think, that it's better to have extra 2000 Strelas at hand, than nothing (even with its mediocre hit probability, and limited rather to running out aircraft, showing exhaust).

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Germans were saving that East German equipment for a "rainy day" which is what probably happened inside those ammo bunkers!?! That's my theory anyway.

KMW however, has offered from their own stockpile to send I BELIEVE the number was 50 GEPHARD SPAA to the Ukraine. They were (Almost 2 weeks ago now.) prepping them for shipment to include some minor updates to Radar and FCS.

1. Pending Govt. approval which is likely now.

2. How to setup training on the systems for the Ukrainian troops are the issues of concern at this time.

Ashamed about the STRELA's if true, they at least might've been effective to a degree against the Russia helicopters.

I feel good about my assessment of I made about the fighting qualities of the Ukrainian military prior to the invasion, they took what everyone gave them training wise to include an extensive portion devoted to "nationalism" and "pride of service" to their country.

I'm under no illusions here (Though I really hope I'm wrong and they pull off the 1936 Winter War Finland won.) but the situation is very dyer I think in the long term. That being said, I at the same time feel Putin waited 8yrs too long. He should've kept going in 2014. And before someone says something, I'm glad he didn't.

Also have seen several reports earlier on that the Russians are running around with a fair amount T-72B3 tanks and I've seen a couple of videos where the turrets had been blown off of them (~3 or 4. Usually, a sign they were taken out by top attack ATGM, ours or UK's. How? By the ERA Pkg. on them for one.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Germans were saving that East German equipment for a "rainy day" which is what probably happened inside those ammo bunkers!?! That's my theory anyway.

Yeah that does make sense. I recall from back in the 80's buying surplus 8mm ammo that had been OBVIOUSLY sand blasted to remove storage corrosion. Interestingly, I do not recall many misfires from it

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

KMW however, has offered from their own stockpile to send I BELIEVE the number was 50 GEPHARD SPAA to Ukraine. They were (Almost 2 weeks ago now.) prepping them for shipment to include some minor updates to Radar and FCS.

https://militaryleak.com/2022/03/02/...ag-to-ukraine/