Guide MA Oceania - OMG, I think I've done it - Page 8

Baalz · #71 March 12th, 2009, 11:37 AM

Well, to each his own I suppose, but the way I look at it is like this - would you rather have a transformed capricorn or a non-transformed? Low MR is certainly a significant drawback, no doubt. However, you get two huge benefits: +1 to all your magic paths and no upkeep. I've highlighted the compounding nature of the no upkeep benefit (which, if you continue to do it does generate a never ending stream of free mages from a gold point of view as long as you're pumping nature gems in), but I think those of you complaining that transformed capricorns are useless in combat are failing to appreciate how crippled they are out of the water by default.

In the left corner two 1w 2n mages, and a 2w 2n mage with good MR. In the right corner a 2w 3n 1e, 3w 3n, and 2w 3n 1a mages with low MR. In exchange for the low MR you have picked up spells from falling frost to rust mist to freezing mist (hint: did I mention you struggle with damage outlay by default?) and everybody is spamming charm, poison cloud, stream of life not to mention the forging and ritual benefits (like, say the dragon master + ice drakes I mentioned). Yes, low MR is a big penalty, but your mages are next to worthless without it anyway. When you add to that the benefits from having no upkeep your choice is really more like: those 3 high MR, low magic capricorns or 10 low MR guys with the higher paths. Low MR or no, it seems like a no-brainer to me who I'm bringing to battle (most of the time) *despite* the obvious drawbacks.

There are many situations where having a low MR is a critical weakness, but there are plenty when it's not even if your opponent knows your weakness. March against Ulm or Caelum or Man or Eriu etc. with lots of decoys (ice drakes, dark vines, etc) and that low MR is not going to be the end of the world. Plus, if you're fielding many more mages due to lack of upkeep you can certainly still come out ahead after some casualties from the low MR.

JimMorrison · #72 March 12th, 2009, 12:43 PM

They're just exceedingly vulnerable, in practice. You don't have 10 anything if they're all dead already.

It's not that there aren't clever ways to protect them from a weak opponent, it's just that there are so damned many clever ways to -kill- them. A human would have to be a fool, not to cause you a high rate of attrition on your "free" mages.

There is also quite a mid game period of vulnerability where you just can't possibly have all of your primary research done, yet you need to be on land already, and posturing as if you are a threat greater than the "wrath of the angry sea that will come back to haunt you".

Jazzepi · #73 March 12th, 2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

They're just exceedingly vulnerable, in practice. You don't have 10 anything if they're all dead already.

It's not that there aren't clever ways to protect them from a weak opponent, it's just that there are so damned many clever ways to -kill- them. A human would have to be a fool, not to cause you a high rate of attrition on your "free" mages.

There is also quite a mid game period of vulnerability where you just can't possibly have all of your primary research done, yet you need to be on land already, and posturing as if you are a threat greater than the "wrath of the angry sea that will come back to haunt you".

Yeah, that is a huge issue. I just pushed a MA Oceania player off of my coast for three "free" provinces because he came on, and conquered the territories, but besides someday threatening me with revenge, it's just not very scary.

TBH, I think most ocean nations suffer from the "I suck on land" effect at the beginning of the game, but Oceanian has it pretty bad.

Jazzepi

chrispedersen · #74 March 12th, 2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

There are many situations where having a low MR is a critical weakness, but there are plenty when it's not even if your opponent knows your weakness. March against Ulm or Caelum or Man or Eriu etc. with lots of decoys (ice drakes, dark vines, etc) and that low MR is not going to be the end of the world. Plus, if you're fielding many more mages due to lack of upkeep you can certainly still come out ahead after some casualties from the low MR.

Oreos or Raks with seduction. Sirens. Vengeance of the dead.
Tartarian chains.

Not to mention half the spells in the book are MR. I think its a great idea B. But I don't think it transforms Oceania into a powerhouse. Same strategy works better for Pangaea.

I think you're better off pursueing a death death death strat.

Illuminated One · #75 March 13th, 2009, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

Well, to each his own I suppose, but the way I look at it is like this - would you rather have a transformed capricorn or a non-transformed? Low MR is certainly a significant drawback, no doubt. However, you get two huge benefits: +1 to all your magic paths and no upkeep. I've highlighted the compounding nature of the no upkeep benefit (which, if you continue to do it does generate a never ending stream of free mages from a gold point of view as long as you're pumping nature gems in), but I think those of you complaining that transformed capricorns are useless in combat are failing to appreciate how crippled they are out of the water by default.

In the left corner two 1w 2n mages, and a 2w 2n mage with good MR. In the right corner a 2w 3n 1e, 3w 3n, and 2w 3n 1a mages with low MR. In exchange for the low MR you have picked up spells from falling frost to rust mist to freezing mist (hint: did I mention you struggle with damage outlay by default?) and everybody is spamming charm, poison cloud, stream of life not to mention the forging and ritual benefits (like, say the dragon master + ice drakes I mentioned). Yes, low MR is a big penalty, but your mages are next to worthless without it anyway. When you add to that the benefits from having no upkeep your choice is really more like: those 3 high MR, low magic capricorns or 10 low MR guys with the higher paths. Low MR or no, it seems like a no-brainer to me who I'm bringing to battle (most of the time) *despite* the obvious drawbacks.

Yeah, there are some examples were transformation makes a lot of sense (ritual casters, e and a mages) but I think you are overstating the benefit it has overall.
Would you rather have a 3w2n capricorn with a water bracelet or a 3w3n animal to cast water spells? That's just one lost path that you don't plan to use anyway and for that you are sacrificing precision, durability and mobility. What do you do when R'lyeh attacks you and 80% of your mages can't go under the water?

Illuminated One · #76 April 28th, 2009, 09:03 PM

Since I played Oceania some time ago and was utterly crushed by vfb on turn 8 or so I don't think the Ichtisaytirs are that good.
I have an sp game with a mostly similar setup but completely different indie expansion now and that worked quite well. It still has some problems, though with a high dom it works fine. If you drop only air you can get a wyrm with good dom and n5d2s3 or e3, but imo a high dom alone could be enough.

Maybe it's my inability to use them, but even groups of 10 ichtycentaurs + 2 smiters (=680 gold) are slaughtered by tougher indies and have so many losses against weaker ones that you have to reinforce them soon. And that's something that you never want to do underwater, by the time your reinforcements have reached them indie expansion is finished.

What usually happens is they build up fatigue while only killing a little. And as they do their defense drops faster than the attack of the indies and their prot, too (17 defense is really 13 defense with +4 shield parry which isn't to great against criticals).
And since you'll see very long battles that's bad.
On land they work ok, but underwater there's just so much you have to avoid (chaff, nets, Illythids).

Oceania has a quite good unit that you have overlooked I think though, the Ichtisatyrs.
They cost 8 gold 2 res, with ok stats, except low morale.
I build as much as I can on the first turn and make groups of 10 with my starting army and set them on attack rearmost, spread them in a line.
If you fight in your own dom, with sermon of courage and the tritons to boost morale they usually deal enough damage to all but the toughest indies to rout them before taking much losses themselves. Really, my first party ran out of provinces to conquer before it was useless.

earcaraxe · #77 March 21st, 2010, 08:54 PM

why is cold scale a good idea for underwater nations?

nice guide tho, grats! not just for the substance but for the very enjoyable style also!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

.....? I thought what I just did was a very decided death slant on Oceana. You've a hard sell to convince me I missed the death angle on them. Your point is I didn't mention burden of time? It's incredibly situational depending on who your adversaries are and who you can afford to piss off, if it's likely to be dispelled, and if you've got pressing needs for your death gems. I try to keep my guides under a certain length so that people will actually read the whole thing, which means I don't go into detail of everything you can do. Yes, I agree that death scales make a whole lot of sense for Oceana, but I didn't really talk about scales at all. Cold-3 also makes a lot of sense for all underwater nations. I think a lot of what you mention is very situational.

I also did, in fact, mention that laying quickness on the centaurs complements their lance nicely. Haste does not affect first strike (it makes you use less AP to move, doesn't give you AP) and friendly currents doesn't make a significant difference.