Mod: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate V1.01

[Aezeal]

hehe banners never are high on my priority list I'll admit but I'll see what I can do

back to some of your points:
I think I had a few assasination fights in the past with them so I'm pretty sure that should work
I'll correct the sprite thing

I'm not quite sure I agree that dragons not being good in the lab is so unfitting and if you empower them in a new path they have a magic boost so that opens op a lot of options for selective boosting. (the fact you have so much options for the gems was why I had the summon costs lower before. Maybe that should be altered a bit again) (I still can't mod new boosters, that summoning thing isn't possible either i think)

I assume your last reply mean you did have the latest version so I'll have to weaken the bone biters... 3 AP attacks on a recruitable with high prot and HP probably is a bit too much.. I'll need to cut out one attack.

I guess I'll accomodate the pretenders complaints too and create somesort of immmobile dragon statue (will probably mean the others will never be used sadly.. maybe I should use those sprites for other dragons then)

[Gregstrom]

If you're going for an immobile pretender, an egg could be appropriate.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by Aezeal

hehe banners never are high on my priority list I'll admit but I'll see what I can do

back to some of your points:
I think I had a few assasination fights in the past with them so I'm pretty sure that should work

Yeah, they're working this game. It must have been simply bad luck.

I'm not quite sure I agree that dragons not being good in the lab is so unfitting

Seems wrong for a race named "Magic Incarnate".

gain) (I still can't mod new boosters, that summoning thing isn't possible either i think)

What about an age dragon spell? Is that possible?

I assume your last reply mean you did have the latest version so I'll have to weaken the bone biters... 3 AP attacks on a recruitable with high prot and HP probably is a bit too much.. I'll need to cut out one attack.

I think it's the latest.

I guess I'll accomodate the pretenders complaints too and create somesort of immmobile dragon statue (will probably mean the others will never be used sadly.. maybe I should use those sprites for other dragons then)

Yeah, a SC pretender is crazy for this race.


I've got another game going, this time vs 10 difficult AI's on Glory of the Gods. I decided I had been not aggressive enough about expansion and decided to be more so:

End of year 1: I have 21 provinces and should have 23 except I lost two to random events.

End of year 2: I have 94.

End of year 3: About 120 provinces, I didn't count. Arco is reduced to only his fortress which I am sieging. I'm not planning to go in, there's a tough pretender in there. I have to push dominion anyway as R'yleh is in the game, I'll just wait for him to pop. I'm harrying Jotun to keep him on his side of the mountains. I'm at peace with a couple of empires and devoting my effort to smashing Ermor as fast as I can so his dominion doesn't eat the lands too badly. The dragons don't fare nearly as well against Ermor as against the other races, I've had half a dozen routs already.

[Aezeal]

Seems wrong for a race named "Magic Incarnate".

Magic incarnate refers to them all having a magic boost for all magic (since they per definition have above avarage (and that is putting it mildly) stats they can't also have above average magic power since that would be overpowering them by definition.)

Age dragon spell can't be done I fear.

OK your example makes it clear that this race can be used in ways that shows they are overpowered. Can you tell me exactly what you did (I'm guessing it's mainly those bonebiters but if I'm going to fix it (prolly work for the weekend) then I'd like to know all of it.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by Aezeal

Magic incarnate refers to them all having a magic boost for all magic (since they per definition have above avarage (and that is putting it mildly) stats they can't also have above average magic power since that would be overpowering them by definition.)

Age dragon spell can't be done I fear.

OK your example makes it clear that this race can be used in ways that shows they are overpowered. Can you tell me exactly what you did (I'm guessing it's mainly those bonebiters but if I'm going to fix it (prolly work for the weekend) then I'd like to know all of it.

Every couple of turns I send out an Adamantine Claw Dragon with a couple of turns of bonebiter recruits. This group will almost never lose anyone to an indie. Since it's got a flight move of 3 it's very good at getting to the battle.

I initially tried using some ghost dragons to clear provinces but it's a lot of micromanagement. I'd do it in MP but it's not worth it against the AI.

Next game I'm going to try it with a single turn of recruits.

Note that this has left me way behind on research (I have only two mages at this point, my pretender and a plague dragon that happened by) but so what? In my previous game I didn't need the magic in the first place.

It's summer of 5, Ermor is also sieged and my armies are munching up Utgard. At this point I'm deploying them with 40 bonebiters. I've got 5 castles turning them out, there about 20 such groups out there, 10 of which are smashing Utgard. I have one group in every border province with Abysia, the only other force I'm at war with.

[Loren]

Followup to the previous message:

It's year 10. 3 enemies remain. Two are water empires, the third is somewhere behind Atlantis. As I utterly neglected magic I have no way to reach it or even see it. I also have no way to enter the water since I have only a few hundred points of research total.

I'm pushing multiple candles per turn into both R'yleh and Atlantis and I have enough bonebiters to take on everything they have without difficulty. The conclusion is apparent, no point in sitting there pressing End Turn.

Next game I'm taking the difficulty up another notch.

[rdonj]

Actually you do have a way into the water, ice plate dragons are amphibious.

Speaking of which, I think they might want to get a #watershape, because at the moment they fly when underwater, which can be a little strange when you have a bunch of them rise up out of the ocean and fly several provinces away. It would also be nice if you had some recruitable amphibious troops, or maybe recruitables that you can only but underwater. Something like a sea serpent?

I agree with loren that the PD should probably be changed. Partly because there really is no point in ever buying more than 1 point of pd... the wyrmlings are just too much cannon fodder, basically they just make the commander flee. It also seems unthematic for dragons to have their young defend against attacks. It would make more sense if the pd was sort of there to guard the wyrmlings... you could keep wyrmlings in there but there should be something meaner to discourage you from killing them.

If you nerf the bonebiters a lot you should take a close look at steel dragons too, they're not too much worse and much more massable. And consider giving poison ivy dragons a boost to their supply bonus so it's easier to fight ermor

The dragons are definitely overpowered in their present state though. I'm playing a game right now with all mighty AIs, and I'm bordered by ermor, gath, and r'lyeh. I've been fighting them for 15+ turns (it is turn 37), the war is annoying because I have to attack into their territory, then fly back out, then in, etc because of supplies. So it's not really going anywhere, and I keep thinking to myself I should just attack gath to get more money to kill ermor with, because I've been stuck with approximately the same amount of territory/money I had at the start of the war due to their evil dominion. They are actually the first nation I've fought able to kill my bonebiters in any significant number, but the best they can do is keep my numbers basically flat, and I am recruiting only ~10 dragons a turn due to upkeep. If I was not working so hard at research I could pull out all my poison ivy dragons and actually make some progress against them, but I really want to do a lot of research in this game and try to get access to the stronger dragons.

[Aezeal]

well maybe the supplies being a problem is a nice way to keep it balanced a bit.

I think I'll start with removing one attack from the bonebiters one way or another. Then I'll increase cost of the steel dragons a bit (maybe 5 more gc and rec).

I'll change the PD a bit too, less wyrmlings and more steel dragons I'm thinking.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Actually you do have a way into the water, ice plate dragons are amphibious.

I don't think I could have afforded that route anyway, most of my income was going to supporting the vast number of bonebiters I had out there.

By the time I amassed enough it would have been moot as I would have a dominion kill.

I agree with loren that the PD should probably be changed. Partly because there really is no point in ever buying more than 1 point of pd... the wyrmlings are just too much cannon fodder, basically they just make the commander flee. It also seems unthematic for dragons to have their young defend against attacks. It would make more sense if the pd was sort of there to guard the wyrmlings... you could keep wyrmlings in there but there should be something meaner to discourage you from killing them.

Actually quite high PD is still somewhat useful. In that game I put 50 in the stretch where I bordered R'yleh because he kept casting that global that sends the undead fleet around. At that level it packs quite a bit of power. In the range of normal PD levels, though, I would only do 1 point.

If you nerf the bonebiters a lot you should take a close look at steel dragons too, they're not too much worse and much more massable. And consider giving poison ivy dragons a boost to their supply bonus so it's easier to fight ermor

I never even looked that much at the steel ones, I tend to favor strong units (in any game) and have a weakness about overlooking useful weaker ones.

The dragons are definitely overpowered in their present state though. I'm playing a game right now with all mighty AIs, and I'm bordered by ermor, gath, and r'lyeh.

Ermor seems to be their weakness. Again and again in that game I watched them rout from armies they could easily defeat otherwise. It looks like the real culprit is ghosts.

[quotue]I've been fighting them for 15+ turns (it is turn 37), the war is annoying because I have to attack into their territory, then fly back out, then in, etc because of supplies.[/quote]

The nature dragon can forge wineskins out of the box, if a plague dragon shows up he can forge cauldrons. One of each will support a 36-bonebiter unit in Ermor lands.

They are actually the first nation I've fought able to kill my bonebiters in any significant number, but the best they can do is keep my numbers basically flat, and I am recruiting only ~10 dragons a turn due to upkeep.

I never lost all that many, just had them rout all over the place.

If I was not working so hard at research I could pull out all my poison ivy dragons and actually make some progress against them, but I really want to do a lot of research in this game and try to get access to the stronger dragons.

Beware of the problem I had with the dragon of fate--it killed the game.

[rdonj]

I was being facetious about the supply bonus az, I don't really think you should raise it

"Actually quite high PD is still somewhat useful. In that game I put 50 in the stretch where I bordered R'yleh because he kept casting that global that sends the undead fleet around. At that level it packs quite a bit of power. In the range of normal PD levels, though, I would only do 1 point."

Heh, they cast that in my game as well. Which proved very annoying this last turn as it killed four ice plated dragons that were trying to get to a lake with a small undead army that's been forcing me to guard against it for several turns because they're right next to some temples.

"I never even looked that much at the steel ones, I tend to favor strong units (in any game) and have a weakness about overlooking useful weaker ones."

I recruit steel dragons when I've queued all the bonebiters I can and still have resources left over. It's a good way to help boost numbers quickly, especially early on. They're probably better on a per-resource basis than bonebiters but the bonebiters are still more gold-efficient.

I really should build wineskins, I've just been hording gems for summons because I am trying to win in the least efficient way possible!

That's a good point, here I've been busily building astral boosters when there's no good reason to, I'll crash the game and then where will I be. Btw I am now fighting gath and ermor at the same time and winning