OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Huzurdaddi]

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Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I guess you have never tried both services personally. They are not at all comparable. Canadian health care sucks.

No, it really doesn't "suck". If you'd look at the most basic of statistics, you'd see that our mortality statistics are comparable or better than that of the U.S.

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No it SUCKS. Canada has the benefit of having a 2-tier health system. If you can afford it you go to the US. If you can not you get treated in Canada. No one with a right head and sufficient capital and the time will pick a location for treatment will stay in Canada for any important medical procedure. I would not mind getting my scraped knee taken care of in Canada but any serious procedure I would want done in the US.

Seriously every jackass who thinks he knows anything about health care talks endlessly about how the Canadian system is better. I am an Ex-Pat now living in the US so I know. I have experienced both systems 1st hand. The Canadian system *SUCKS*.

Yes, yes it is clear that the statistics for a country will be better if you have universal health care. That's so painfully clear it hurts. Since there are a great number of simple problems which can be solved by a simple application of medicine.

However if you have the choice between the two systems the choice is clear: the US. US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

It is simply better if you can afford it.

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*IF* you can afford US health care it is far superior. Period.

That's the problem. You can't simply ignore the people who can't afford it and then state that the system is superior. If you want your sample to be at all indicative of the actual state, then you must include even those people that can't afford proper healthcare.

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I sure can say it is better. I said it is better *IF* you can afford it, you are the jackass saying the Canadian system is simply better. I qualified my statement to make it correct. I'm all for a 2 tier system. Of course you can't sell a 2-tier system. Hell most Canadian�s will not admit that they have a 2 tier system even though they all have "rich friends" who get procedures done in the US.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:37: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

What's funny (that's funny as in "damned disgusting") is that the Republicans who so very much despise the concept of universal healthcare as destructive of America's present fine medical care system are also very busy trying to undo the very system of tort laws that you assert is the underpinning of why the U.S. has good health care. So, if things progress (devolve is actually a better term) the way they are going, the U.S. will end up with the worst of all possible systems: medical care that's expensive, covers only the rich, and with no system of protection against negligent/incompetent practicioners. Something to ponder ...

EDIT: OTOH, the present tort law system makes lawyers very rich, at the expense of EVERYONE else. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, with regards to healthcare/tort reform.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:50: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
You can quickly reach logical coherency by discarding this premise as false. Graeme, however, would likely call me a horrible person for saying such a thing, as if I was some sort of serial killer or mass-murderer merely because I have logically discarded an internally inconsistent belief.

You're completely full of **** Norfleet. Please provide a link to where I've stated that "All life is sacred", as you seem to be implying that I've said. I expect you to either provide such a link, or apologize for lying about what I've stated. I've said that human always has value, but have said nothing about other, non-human anmals.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
However if you have the choice between the two systems the choice is clear: the US. US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

Well, you've certainly found a doctor who prescribes good psychedelics if you think the compensation and system here ensure the best health care. The doctors here are, by and large, overpaid, and have such good insurance that many don't feel a need to pay attention to what they're doing. Where I just came from in Florida, the _best_ local hospital had doctors amputating the wrong limbs, performing surgeries on the wrong people, and killing people by prescribing the wrong drugs.

Tort law does nothing to prevent this. And under many health plans, people don't even get a chance to go to tort law anyway - it goes to mediation, said mediation being people who are on the health plans' payrolls, deciding whether the outfit that gives their paychecks was right. Guess how they decide most of the time?

It is simply better if you can afford it.

You know - I got better health care in Colombia South America this New Years Eve. No medical insurance for that country, 5 in the evening New Years Eve - I waited in the emergency room for less than half an hour, saw a good doctor, was out in less than 1.5 hours total, and spent somewhat under $100, including two medications prescribed.

It's pretty flaming sad when a country as ... internally mangled as Colombia has better health service than the USA - with the health plan my employer gave me, as a $65,000 employee, I would have had to pay more, for worse treatment, at home.

Sure - rich Colombians come here for fancy operations. So do the ultra rich Russians, Saudis, etc, because everyone knows - rich people can get the _best_ treatment in the USA.

Fifty years ago, the average doctor earned about 5 times the average person's pay. The average CEO made about 10 times his average employee's salary. Today, the doctor makes 50 times the average pay in his area; the CEO makes 500 times the average employee's pay.

Capitalism is broken, at least in this country. For blood's sake, some of the richest and smartest capitalists in the country say so - Warren Buffet, Paul Allen, George Soros, etc.

When corporations were originally given equal status to human beings / citizens in this country, no one imagined a day when the corporations sole responsibility was to itself, its executives, and even more so, to its stock holders. A corporations prime responsibility is ... fiduciary. It has to make money for the stock holders, and damn everything else. Not just make money - but make the _most_ money.

Otherwise, the companies can, and have been, sued, for not maximizing the shareholders wealth.

Glad you like a country that, with one of the largest gaps between poor and rich in the world, has gone back to giving the rich huge tax cuts.

Feh.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
[QB]If you can afford it you go to the US. If you can not you get treated in Canada.[/QB}

I assume you can provide statistics to back up this claim, and can also show that the portion of people who get their health care in the U.S. has even a statistically significant effect on the overall quality of out health care.

Yes, yes it is clear that the statistics for a country will be better if you have universal health care. That's so painfully clear it hurts. Since there are a great number of simple problems which can be solved by a simple application of medicine.

The point of _any_ economic system is to create the most good for the most people. If your system doesn't do this, then there is a problem. That should also be the point of a health care system.

US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care.

Please outline the difference between U.S. and Canadian tort law that makes U.S. health care safer.

I sure can say it is better. I said it is better *IF* you can afford it, you are the jackass saying the Canadian system is simply better.

Which is the point. Do you really like to build strawman arguments?

I qualified my statement to make it correct. I'm all for a 2 tier system. Of course you can't sell a 2-tier system. Hell most Canadian�s will not admit that they have a 2 tier system even though they all have "rich friends" who get procedures done in the US.

I'm still waiting for something other than your unsupported assertion that this is the case.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You're completely full of **** Norfleet.

It's a medical condition known as a "bowel obstruction". It happens when your head is stuck up your ***.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You're completely full of **** Norfleet. Please provide a link to where I've stated that "All life is sacred", as you seem to be implying that I've said. I expect you to either provide such a link, or apologize for lying about what I've stated.

I never said you said anything. Where'd you get that idea?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You're completely full of **** Norfleet.

It's a medical condition known as a "bowel obstruction". It happens when one's head is stuck up one's ***.

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BTW, this painful, highly contagious, and potentially fatal malady (to others) is endemic amongst lawyers and politicans (the primary carriers of the disease), and it's severity is directly proportional to their strength of religious conviction.

[Huzurdaddi]

I assume you can provide statistics to back up this claim, and can also show that the portion of people who get their health care in the U.S. has even a statistically significant effect on the overall quality of out health care.

I guess I could google for such things if they exist. I mean who the heck would track such a thing. Perhaps it would be evident from the MRI scandal in Alberta about 10 years ago. Or it would be evident from what you see around you. I mean you do know people who go the the US for anything serious ... don't you? And they don't go there due to the FDA being quick to aprove treatments ... that's the reason some knuckelheads go to Canada.

The point of _any_ economic system is to create the most good for the most people. If your system doesn't do this, then there is a problem. That should also be the point of a health care system.

It seems that the point of capitalism is to create the most economic wealth. Pretty much period. As to how the wealth gets allocated that's how capitalism is messed up via some metrics.

Please outline the difference between U.S. and Canadian tort law that makes U.S. health care safer.

I guess you have not been involved with in a malpractice suit in Canada. The standards of proof are far greater on the defendant. The awards much lower. The end result is that malpractice suits are brought forward far fewer times in Canada. Call up a lawyer. He will be happy to tell you all about it. Or make up a case then call a lawyer in Canada and ask him what he thinks, then ask a US lawyer. You will be amazed at the difference.

Tort law does nothing to prevent this.

... right ...

Fifty years ago, the average doctor earned about 5 times the average person's pay. The average CEO made about 10 times his average employee's salary. Today, the doctor makes 50 times the average pay in his area; the CEO makes 500 times the average employee's pay.

Yep allocation of funds has gotten out of hand in the US I'll agree. Although I think that your numbers are slightly off. The average doctor does not make x50 times the pay of the average salary ( that would be over 1,000,000 USD. Which is quite high for a doctor ) and only the top small percentage of CEO's make x500 time average pay. However I do conceed that CEO pay has gotten really out of hand. We need some real reform in the US to stop CEO's from naming their own board. Arthur Levitt has some really good ideas on this topic. Too bad they kicked him out. Best SEC chairman 3var.

has gone back to giving the rich huge tax cuts.

Not at all happy about that. Let me tell you. Sure I benifited from it, but I think that the US works better with a proper functioning middle class. Which is why I made my donation to the DNC ( through my wife since I am not a citizen yet ), did you?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
It seems that the point of capitalism is to create the most economic wealth. Pretty much period. As to how the wealth gets allocated that's how capitalism is messed up via some metrics.

The point of capitalism is to create the most wealth for those with the capital, namely capitalists. That anyone else (such as workers) manages to benefit from this exercise in greed is incidental/accidental, and can be ascribed to democracy. Democracy is a tool that is beneficial to the capitalists only insofar as they can control it to better serve their goals. Thus you have what is seen in the U.S. today: a Congress that's a millionaire's club, beholden to corporate & wealthy donors, giving only lip service to the electorate's desires, and then only as much as is necessary to keep them in their positions of power and comfort. A Congress that is not subject to the same laws as the people who elect them.

There's a word for what we have: plutocracy. Or government of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy. Not exactly what Abe had in mind in his famous Address.

BTW, speaking of the tools of democracy, and their usefulness to the plutocrats, you have only to look at Fox News. And anyone that ever doubted the propheticness of Orwell's 1984 only has to look at the Patriot Act, Echelon, Carnivore, John Ashcroft, (un)Justice Scalia, et cetera. I shudder to think what might come next. Truly scary.