VQ Counters - NO Debates

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Molog:
Wouldn't mandrogoras be a good counter. They are undead, their sleep vines ignore armor and etherealness, six attacks pro mandrogora, 4 hits would be enough to put the vq to sleep, less if she was already fatigued.

The problem with mandrogoras, is that they don't fly... so they won't be able to get to her before she buffs. Though I was recently schooled to their effectiveness against SC's in a recent MP game...

Is the sleep effect resisted with MR? If so, a fully decked out VQ should be nigh immune... and if they're not lifeless, then the old Soul Vortex + Wraith Sword would keep her pretty safe methinks.

EDIT: They are undead (duh!) so of course they're lifeless, but MR negates the sleep effect... so I dunno... if she's almost at 100 fatigue after buffing, then you might be able to get her... since Soul Vortex won't help. But I doubt it would do much against a fully equiped VQ with reinvigoration items and a sky-high MR.

Black forest Ulm gets that Nightzehrer hero, who is a better Version of the vampire queen. Only not stealthy, but he can get an heroic ability. Make him your profet for better effect.

Pretty new at dominions, so might be wrong.

I don't know his magic paths, but VQ's really only become uber with a lot of magic... so it's unlikely that he would be quite as effective as an optimized VQ.

[ May 06, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[AhhhFresh]

An intersting issue has been brought up by archaeolept which is part of the temple/castle/VQ strat:

The VQ is hidden in the sea of castles for the most part, and if it does move out i'm not sure if an attack on her would occur before an "instant castle" spell like 7 red seconds takes place.

So that's the question... does anybody knows what happens if:

1)VQ has just won a battle is alone in a province
2)Your mages cast Angelic Host 2-3 times on the province
3)One of her mages casts Wizard's Tower on the same province

Which happens first? Are you always going to have your Angels staring at her brand new castle walls? Or are you always going to have battle before the castle can come up? Or is it random?

Anybody in a position to test this?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
An intersting issue has been brought up by archaeolept which is part of the temple/castle/VQ strat:

quote:

---

The VQ is hidden in the sea of castles for the most part, and if it does move out i'm not sure if an attack on her would occur before an "instant castle" spell like 7 red seconds takes place.

Anybody in a position to test this?

---

Both are "spell attacks" on a province so the answer might involve the order of the nations, or maybe the game-age of the mages. So testing might have to be done with different nations.

Whats needed to test it. If I add to the Aran.map something like
#specstart 6 111 (arcos)
#startspell 6 "Angelic Host"

#specstart 10 123 (pangaea)
#god 10 "Vampire Queen"
#dominionstr 10 10
#startspell 10 "Wizards Tower"

WOuld that be enough to test it? Id probably have to give Arcos a god with clams or an extra site that generates pearles

[Norfleet]

I just made a very interesting discovery:

The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.

Why?

Because it seems that even if they miss, even if they fail to do any damage, as evidenced by the fact that mirror images don't collapse, fatigue is inflicted! As a result, in the matter of a round or two, the VQ will surpass 100 fatigue and pass out, totally useless. I just found this out as a result of trying to use my newly-equipped pretender to mop up a pesky vampire count attack....and was very surprised to see this happen.

An extension of this theory would suggest that any attack which inflicts fatigue damage behaves likewise. This could be why Zen has consistently hinted at the great effectiveness of Mandragorae against any SC. Ghosts should definitely exhibit a similar behavior.

[ May 07, 2004, 00:18: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.

Wow, thats kindof funny. I wont slap myself for not trying it because even now it just doesnt seem like a reasonable thing to have tried.

[Norfleet]

Yeah, I kinda discovered this by accident also.

But vampires are probably perfect for the job: They fly, so they can strike instantly. They're undead and immune to cold and poison, just as the queen herself is, so none of the damage shields that the queen could use, if she Lasts that long, will affect them: Breath of Winter is useless. Soul Vortex is useless. Fire Shield doesn't do enough damage to stop the vampires from regenerating it back. Astral Shield will only slow the effect down.

What's more, if you are counterattacking with the vampires on YOUR dominion, YOU RISK NOTHING!

Of course, for a non-blood nation, vampires may be difficult to access, but surprisingly, you don't need very many. I was sunk by a mere 17 vampires, managing to slay only a dismal 4. That amounts to less than 3 castings of Blood Rite, a sum of a mere 78 blood slaves.

Even if you don't want to go the blood route, anything similar will do: Ghosts, for instance, can accomplish the same effect, although you will not be able to fly-attack....unless you use Mass Flight. Mandragorae could probably do the job, but their sleep vines are slightly different from the Life Drain attack shared by Ghosts and Vampires, so they may not produce the same result....but they're much cheaper and more expendable.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Both are "spell attacks" on a province so the answer might involve the order of the nations, or maybe the game-age of the mages. So testing might have to be done with different nations.

According to the turn sequence in the manual, all rituals are cast in random order. The devs have also stated that globals are all resolved simultaneously.

[Stormbinder]

Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target.

It's been that way for a while, whether or not it's a bug or just 'one of those things' could be up in the air. Especially considering how hard it would be to hit someone with say 9 Mirror Images and 30 Defense before they killed you and your entire army that there is no counter for.

Just for your own testing purposes, try taking a Golem or any other Lifeless unit (Golem is easiest) and putting some air on it and look at the results, I think you'll be surprised.