Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?

[Darryl]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Your introducing different variables into the discussion... which can stray the topic... but I will respond anyways.

The godhood comment introduces religious and belief variables so I will avoid this because it can blossom so many different topics.

Actually many believe this has happened to the current topic in light of the original question asked as well.

Godzilla and BugsBunny are known and they do exist as cartoons on television... thus known and exist. One can even visit a local store and purchase a BugsBunny.

Actually in reality as physical living beings they do not exist, which is what I was referring to (but admittedly didn't make clear). If one were to actually attempt and FIND Godzilla or Bugs Bunny one would not be able to as they do not exist outside of fictional concepts. No one uses the term "unknown" to refer to Godzilla because the lizard creature is not real.

The 3rd and 4th arm... needs more explanation. How do you know about these are arms? Are you a mechanic which works on prosthetics? Are you referring to someone who might be insane and able to see these arms?

Are we talking about knowledge or existance. If I am insane and see more than 2 arms that does not mean the arms suddenly "exist" in the physical term of the word any more than Bugs Bunny "exists". My point here is you seem to include things that hypothetically could come into existance at a later date, which is why I posted this.

In the case of the programmer he knows about the copper mine because he programmed the event... making the copper mine known and nonexistent.

Here you seem to have changed the original spirit of the question. Of course the programmer knows about the event. The event though is known AND it exists! Then you switched to the actual copper mine. The event and the actual mine are 2 different things. The event was programmed. The actual ocurrence gives you gold and "actually happens". So before it happens, the actual mine doesn't exist.

What people are saying is that when something "doesn't exist" it is not elgible to be called "known" or "unknown". In 1960 I was not "unknown", I simply didn't exist as I wasn't born yet. Suppose someone asked these 2 questions:

Where is your actual physical being real mother right now?

Where is the actual physical being real Bugs Bunny right now?

Now it is assumed that your mother does exist but you may not know her current location and you may. In the case of Bugs Bunny (the actual physical living being) he does not exist. Never has. To say the location of Bugs Bunny is "unknown" is incorrect. The term does not apply if something cannot be known since it doesn't exist.

So in light of your Posts I am assuming you find the description of "Aschaic Record" in error since it says it finds all sites in a province, but won't find those from events, correct?

[NTJedi]

Darryl...

You are adding lots of new variables... but they do not change the facts. The copper mine remains known even tho it does not exist yet... and may never exist. Things which someone has knowledge of and could come into existence should be recognized and thus classified as known and nonexistent.

The event is known and does exist... the copper mine is known and nonexistent. The player does not have to recieve gold first... the mine could exist and indicate in the game an increase for gold income next turn. The change in the game setting for an increase of gold next turn shows the mine exists.

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Where is your actual physical being real mother right now?

Where is the actual physical being real Bugs Bunny right now?
======

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Game information such as an event which creates a mine can easily be proven when playing the game. The question you are asking is far different then what can be proven when playing a game. For example what happens if someones real mother is to die... now you've introduced another topic about spirtuality/religion as some would see the real mother as nonexistent and others would disagree. The statements I made are directed at the game... you are introducing so so many outside variables leaving the answers for your questions as subjective from person to person.
Lets stick with either a game example or your 3rd arm example which does not have so many extra variables.

[ March 20, 2004, 02:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
You are adding lots of new variables... but they do not change the facts.

No. None of your arguments where you continually show your near complete lack of understanding of the English language changes the facts. Something which does not exist cannot be either known or unknown.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
No. None of your arguments where you continually show your near complete lack of understanding of the English language changes the facts. Something which does not exist cannot be either known or unknown.

Careful, Graeme. He'll accuse you of flaming him for stating facts obvious for all to see, just as he did when Zen and I pretty much said the same thing.

[Leblanc]

The problem seems to be that the physical world, in which we are people playing Dominions and the game exists as a series of commands on our computers, and the world of Dominions, in which we play gods, are not being thought of as seperate. If we are thinking of ourselves as inhabitants of the game world then yes, the sites probably existed before, as mineral deposits dont frequently appear out of nowhere (though they do sometimes I suppose). Since they are simply minerals, whether or not they are truly magic and thus dectectable by acashic recodrd could be debated, but that is missing the point entirely. The point is that the world of Dominions exists only in our computers. It was programmed by other people who coded certain commands that would occasionaly 'create' sites in capital provences. If we look at the code, the site did not exist before hand. We have the knowlage that it could cerainly, but it is not coded into the game that it exists at the begginning of the game. If we classify that as knowing a non-existent object then so be it.

Thats just my thoughts in the argument, but in the end Im wondering exactly why it is even being pursued with such vigor. As I attempted to say above, it is an argument purely of point of view and semantics and, further more, it is completely irrelevnt for any reason other than pointless pontificating. Unidentified sites do not exist in your starting province at the begginning of the game. Later, if certain things happen in the coding triggering an event, a site can appear that was not there before in strictly game terms. If we think as inhabitants of the game world perhaps the site was there.

In the end it hardly seems to matter much at all...

[Darryl]

Well my NCAA bracket is slowly falling apart, so I might as well answer here....

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Darryl...
Game information such as an event which creates a mine can easily be proven when playing the game. The question you are asking is far different then what can be proven when playing a game. For example what happens if someones real mother is to die... now you've introduced another topic about spirtuality/religion as some would see the real mother as nonexistent and others would disagree. The statements I made are directed at the game... you are introducing so so many outside variables leaving the answers for your questions as subjective from person to person.
Lets stick with either a game example or your 3rd arm example which does not have so many extra variables.

Ok, fair enough. In the game the term "unknown" as I understand it seems to refer to something which is possible to be found through some conscious action by the player. The obvious example being searching for magic sites. "Unknown" sites refer to sites which are coded into the specific game being played, but are not visible to the player. Aschaic Record is a spell which changes the status of all "Unknown" sites to "known". Copper mine events (and other events) create out of thin air mines which can give the player additional benefits. In game terms, they are not "unknown" as Aschaic Record would have found them if they were. This is my understanding of game mechanics.

If this game were "The Sims" or something where magic does not reign supreme, I'd probably understand your argument better, as copper mines do not appear out of thin air in some games. In this game, many things appear out of thin air ("and suddenly a {blank} appeared in the lab") and as there is a spell which is defined as "finds ALL sites in a given province" the only conclusion is that sites given by special events weren't there if they couldn't be found by that spell.

Now NTJedi, what is it about that which isn't consistent with the game?

Darryl

Edit: changed less than and greater than symbols to brackets

[ March 20, 2004, 04:21: Message edited by: Darryl ]

[Ryukenden]

Topic: Do unknown sites exists in starting provinces?

Answer: If you have multiple provinces, yes. However, your capital province (the one in which your Pretender will usually start in) does not contain any unknown provinces that exist; sites may appear into existance from random events, but they did not exist in the capital before the event had occured.

Opinion: This discussion has taken a turn off of the original topic numerous times, and has become a rather personal one (with the insulting and wanting to be "right"). However, I have found it interesting to read the amount of thought being put into these arguements (with a few exceptions, one of which involving indirectly {and sometimes directly} denying someone's intelligence). I believe that this discussion should end now, as the answer to the original question has been reached; the answers secondary questions indirectly presented by thos who were supposed to answer the primary question should be persued within a different discussion.

[GavinWheeler]

Yikes. I felt a built guilty about replying Last time, but didn't expect anything like this!

So we are abusing Shrapnel Games' hospitality here, folks. If anyone really wants to debate this further, I would suggest they take it to somewhere like alt.atheism for some real philosophical slap-downs.

We all agree that no unknown sites exist in Capitals, so there is no need to search there. Noone is going to publically admit being wrong, here (although it is a useful to skill to cultivate, when it is true) so lets all just leave the opposition to digest our cutting arguments, shall we?

Maybe a moderator could lock the topic, or even trim it down to the first few relevant Posts?

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Something which does not exist cannot be either known or unknown.

There are probably hundreds of extinct prehistoric plants which have left no trace of existence on this earth. This would be classified as unknown and nonexistent. Also because of special circumstances some prehistoric plants have been identified... and would be classified as known and nonexistent.
A futuristic fuel used for flight in the year 3850 would also be unknown and nonexistent.
The copper mine programmed to be created when an event occurs. The programmer has knowledge of this futuristic copper mine. Thus known and nonexistent for the programmer... yet unknown and nonexistent for the other gamers.

[ March 20, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Gandalf Parker]

I agree that topics wandering way off course of this forum would probably have a more enjoyable time if moved to newsGroups (most internet providors give access to newsGroups, ask your support)

As to the sites thing...
I know Im jumping in late and being nitpicky BUT I believe the Devs already answered this somewhere. The game itself will not put hidden sites in a capital. Even if you capture a capital, they wont be there.

HOWEVER it is possible for hidden sites to be given to capitals by using map commands. As far as I know, no map available for download has done that but I have been playing with the idea. I would not be surprised to find out that only on the wild random-strewn maps I create would such a thing be likely. If I do then I plan to make it part of the map description so as not to surprise anyone.

[ March 20, 2004, 17:38: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]